Author Topic: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution  (Read 8164 times)

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Offline Meshakhad

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2014, 01:44:14 am »
Can't we just give them a morphine overdose? Or shoot them in the head?

Well, the eighth amendment, as well as common human decency, generally disfavor such approaches.

Are you talking about the death penalty in general, or those specific methods?
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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2014, 05:22:16 am »
how would a morphine overdose be cruel and unusual punishment anyway? I'd think dying and not being able to feel pain would be a kind way to go...
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Offline starseeker

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2014, 09:06:09 am »
how would a morphine overdose be cruel and unusual punishment anyway? I'd think dying and not being able to feel pain would be a kind way to go...

Nitrogen suffocation works a lot like that, but a lot of the more vocal and pushy pro-death penalty supporters think it's 'too humane' since they don't suffer at all.

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2014, 09:52:47 am »
Seeing as if a vet used the standard death penalty method they would lose their license

Offline Meshakhad

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2014, 11:46:23 am »
how would a morphine overdose be cruel and unusual punishment anyway? I'd think dying and not being able to feel pain would be a kind way to go...

Nitrogen suffocation works a lot like that, but a lot of the more vocal and pushy pro-death penalty supporters think it's 'too humane' since they don't suffer at all.

I've never actually heard that kind of sentiment. I'm pro-death penalty, but I do think we should limit ourselves to quick methods of execution. Morphine overdose sounds ideal. Or, if we want to cut costs, there's the simple expedient of placing a shotgun to the head of the condemned and pulling the trigger.
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Offline gomer21xx

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2014, 02:17:12 pm »
I'm of the mindset that if someone did something heinous enough to warrant a state issued killing, and there's no doubt of their guilt, then fuck the condemned.  Taking the current case in particular, do you think his victim had a swift, relatively painless death?  Why should anyone give him the same courtesy that he didn't give his victim?  When he made her last moments as traumatic as possible, for whatever reasons were running around in his head, he lost all rights to any kind of compassion when he raped and killed that woman.

Is that taking the attitude down to his level?  Maybe, but does someone like that deserve that kind of compassion if he's going to die for such a violent crime?  I don't believe so.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2014, 02:20:56 pm »
I'm of the mindset that if someone did something heinous enough to warrant a state issued killing, and there's no doubt of their guilt, then fuck the condemned.  Taking the current case in particular, do you think his victim had a swift, relatively painless death?  Why should anyone give him the same courtesy that he didn't give his victim?  When he made her last moments as traumatic as possible, for whatever reasons were running around in his head, he lost all rights to any kind of compassion when he raped and killed that woman.

Is that taking the attitude down to his level?  Maybe, but does someone like that deserve that kind of compassion if he's going to die for such a violent crime?  I don't believe so.

So it's okay for the state to do to his family what he did to the family of his victim, then?  Is that what you're saying?

Or have you forgotten that a woman just watched her father suffer a gruesome death?

If the state becomes little better than a rapist/killer, then why should I treat the state any differently than the rapist/killer?
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Offline gomer21xx

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2014, 02:38:33 pm »
I'm of the mindset that if someone did something heinous enough to warrant a state issued killing, and there's no doubt of their guilt, then fuck the condemned.  Taking the current case in particular, do you think his victim had a swift, relatively painless death?  Why should anyone give him the same courtesy that he didn't give his victim?  When he made her last moments as traumatic as possible, for whatever reasons were running around in his head, he lost all rights to any kind of compassion when he raped and killed that woman.

Is that taking the attitude down to his level?  Maybe, but does someone like that deserve that kind of compassion if he's going to die for such a violent crime?  I don't believe so.

So it's okay for the state to do to his family what he did to the family of his victim, then?  Is that what you're saying?

Or have you forgotten that a woman just watched her father suffer a gruesome death?

If the state becomes little better than a rapist/killer, then why should I treat the state any differently than the rapist/killer?

One, I can't wrap my head around a family member wanting to watch a family member being put to death by the state.  I mean, yeah, you know they're gonna die and you know why, but does it warrant watching by a family member?  I'd think it'd be hard to watch, whether the condemned suffered or not, wouldn't it?

Two, as for the condemned's family, I say keep them out until the condemned is already dead.  Why do they need to know the details?  They don't.  They already know why this punishment's being delivered and that's good enough.

Three, with the way the government's being run, how do we know the state isn't already little better than a rapist/killer?
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2014, 02:49:54 pm »
Actually, there is another nuance to making executions quick and painless; it's impersonalized, like taking out the trash. Society in this manner does not sully itself as much with the killing process. The more vengeful side of me would actually like to see a correctly convicted, brutal criminal be instantly erased the second they finished uttering their formal last statement. Poof! Gone. Good riddance.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2014, 03:01:49 pm »
I'm of the mindset that if someone did something heinous enough to warrant a state issued killing, and there's no doubt of their guilt, then fuck the condemned.  Taking the current case in particular, do you think his victim had a swift, relatively painless death?  Why should anyone give him the same courtesy that he didn't give his victim?  When he made her last moments as traumatic as possible, for whatever reasons were running around in his head, he lost all rights to any kind of compassion when he raped and killed that woman.

Is that taking the attitude down to his level?  Maybe, but does someone like that deserve that kind of compassion if he's going to die for such a violent crime?  I don't believe so.

So it's okay for the state to do to his family what he did to the family of his victim, then?  Is that what you're saying?

Or have you forgotten that a woman just watched her father suffer a gruesome death?

If the state becomes little better than a rapist/killer, then why should I treat the state any differently than the rapist/killer?

One, I can't wrap my head around a family member wanting to watch a family member being put to death by the state.  I mean, yeah, you know they're gonna die and you know why, but does it warrant watching by a family member?  I'd think it'd be hard to watch, whether the condemned suffered or not, wouldn't it?

Two, as for the condemned's family, I say keep them out until the condemned is already dead.  Why do they need to know the details?  They don't.  They already know why this punishment's being delivered and that's good enough.

Three, with the way the government's being run, how do we know the state isn't already little better than a rapist/killer?

Perhaps because being with a family member during their last moments is important to some people, have you ever considered that!?

So, we can allow people in to satisfy their bloodlust, but we should exclude people who just want to spend a last moment with a family member who's about to die!?

God, you don't have to show empathy for the killer, but at least show as much god damn empathy for his family as you do for the family of his victim!  That's only fair, don't you think!?

Sheesh...
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Offline Ghoti

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2014, 10:13:51 pm »
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2014, 10:20:17 pm »
Eh, in the interest of preserving peace, I just won't post in this thread anymore.  Or read it anymore, for that matter.  This is one of those subjects that makes my emotions run really high.

Not saying counterarguments can't be made, but that it's better for everyone involved if I stay out of this... in this topic and in future ones.

My apologies.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2014, 10:33:12 pm »
how would a morphine overdose be cruel and unusual punishment anyway? I'd think dying and not being able to feel pain would be a kind way to go...

A lot of the reason for our current execution methods comes from attempts to make it look clean, rather than actually BEING clean. Someone dying of a lethal injection or suffocation doesn't have any blood or missing body parts or vomit or anything. It looks neat and pretty, but is less expedient and likely to be more easily botched than a guillotine or a shotgun to the medulla.

It's the same thinking regarding certain laws of war, like the ban on expanding bullet. Expanding hollow points cause more grievous wounds, but these are more likely to kill quickly and humanely (which is exactly why they're used in hunting and self-defense, including by police). The problem is that the holes they leave are bigger and messier, which doesn't look good on news footage. So we're forced to use full metal jacket rounds that don't reliably expand and often don't reliably tumble, which makes pretty little holes and leaves the soldiers with less immediately fatal wounds that could leave them slowly, painfully dying of gradual blood loss over the course of several minutes. But it sanitizes the visual aspect of the war, and so it stays.
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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2014, 11:13:42 pm »
Not quite, Chit. The real answer why hollow point ammunition is not used is because it sucks ass at piercing armor relative to full metal jacket rounds. Full metal jacket rounds are tougher allowing them to maintain a point upon impact and thus more easily penetrate armor. Further, the standard 5.56 rounds were designed to tumble so as to create more tissue damage, likely just as much as hollow point rounds without compromising its ability against armor.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: New death penalty drugs lead to "air hunger" execution
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2014, 11:29:09 pm »
Not quite, Chit. The real answer why hollow point ammunition is not used is because it sucks ass at piercing armor relative to full metal jacket rounds. Full metal jacket rounds are tougher allowing them to maintain a point upon impact and thus more easily penetrate armor. Further, the standard 5.56 rounds were designed to tumble so as to create more tissue damage, likely just as much as hollow point rounds without compromising its ability against armor.

Armor hasn't been encountered very much in modern conflicts, though. In a fight between large, organized militaries, sure. But by and large, the insurgents, guerrillas, and rebels that modern armies have been fighting have had little to no body armor except what they can steal or purchase on the black market.

And while 5.56x45mm rounds were designed to tumble, they often don't. It's still a point of contention as to whether the heavy bullet and new rifling twist in the M16A2 and A4 have made it less likely to tumble on impact, but it's less contentious that a shorter barrel length results in a lower chance of tumbling at longer ranges; the M4 tends to have more problems with wounding than the M16, and the US military is trying to make a massive switch to M4 usage among general infantry due to the convenience of the shorter gun and adjustable stock.

The problem is that such a small bullet relies on tumbling or expanding to create a suitably large wound channel to cause organ failure, rip blood vessels with glancing hits, and disrupt tissue and cause shock. If that bullet doesn't expand or tumble, you have a 0.22 inch hole. As important as penetration is, so is the size of the round to compensate for discrepancies in accuracy.
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