The Trial of George Zimmerman

[PosthumanHeresy]

A theory:  Martin's hands could have been thought of as a deadly weapon.  Skilled martial artists and CQC experts need to do so, and Zimmerman could have made that (false) assumption.

It's worse than that. A "reasonable fear of death or bodily injury" can be claimed as soon as Martin touched him. Any fight contains a "reasonable fear of death or bodily injury". Therefore, anyone can argue it in any violent confrontation, because yes, there is a "reasonable fear of death or bodily injury". Remember, bodily injury is a vague term. Is bodily injury pissing blood? Coma? Broken bones? Bruised bones? A scrape? While chances are that last one wouldn't work, the rest are all bodily injuries.

Hands, regardless of whose they are, are never considered deadly weapons.

PostHuman, the phrase is "serious bodily injury." Legally, that phrase means pretty much "organ failure" or "injury likely to lead to death."

Ahh, that, hopefully, is better. I assumed it was the direct quote because, well, quotation marks. Hopefully, this changes things. Having lived in Florida for most of my life (NY now), I've seen dumber. Like the local stations being hijacked for the Casey Anthony trial. They doing that again for this?

[m52nickerson]

No, I am repeating that he cannot claim self-defense because he had no "reasonable fear of death or bodily injury." As you pointed out, that is a requirement for self-defense. Zimmerman could not have that fear because Martin was not armed with a deadly weapon.

So you can't beat a person to death with your bare hands? 

Of course you can, and that is why numerous cases in Florida have been judge valid self-defense cases, by juries and judges, when the victim was unarmed.

Here is one where the charges were dismissed by a judge.  In involved the killing of two unarmed men.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_81

Here is yet another dismissed by a judge, and the victim was even retreating.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_104

[erictheblue]

No, I am repeating that he cannot claim self-defense because he had no "reasonable fear of death or bodily injury." As you pointed out, that is a requirement for self-defense. Zimmerman could not have that fear because Martin was not armed with a deadly weapon.

So you can't beat a person to death with your bare hands?

As I have said many times, hands are - legally - NOT a deadly weapon. 

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_81

Read closer. That was a first-degree murder charge that was dismissed. First-degree murder has statutory requirements that do not appear to be met in that story.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_104

The "Stand Your Ground" law specifically includes "occupied vehicle" as a location that can be considered.

The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle,

If you read the story, the victim did force his way into the vehicle.

[m52nickerson]

As I have said many times, hands are - legally - NOT a deadly weapon.

Okay, does not mean the person attacking you needs a deadly weapon for you to reasonably fear for your life?   

Read closer. That was a first-degree murder charge that was dismissed. First-degree murder has statutory requirements that do not appear to be met in that story.

Were does it say that?  All the articles are about cases that have been dismissed on Florida's self defense law.

The "Stand Your Ground" law specifically includes "occupied vehicle" as a location that can be considered.

Yes, it also has any location a person can be legally.

If you read the story, the victim did force his way into the vehicle.

Okay, he was also unarmed.

With all the people on the news and radio talking about every aspect of this case you are the first I have heard claiming he can't claim self defense.  I know your background, but in this case you might just be wrong.

[mellenORL]

One odd factoid being brought into evidence is that Zimmerman (not Martin) attended MMA classes three times a week. Maybe he totally sucked at martial arts, but it's way more practical fight training than Martin ever had as a school boy football player.

[chitoryu12]

Okay, does not mean the person attacking you needs a deadly weapon for you to reasonably fear for your life? 

Unless there's an extreme difference in size, strength, and/or capability (along the lines of a small, elderly woman being attacked by a football player), it's extremely difficult to justify that the attacker is capable of murdering you with their bare hands.

Otherwise, I could legally shoot any drunk at Burger King who tries to punch me.

[m52nickerson]

Unless there's an extreme difference in size, strength, and/or capability (along the lines of a small, elderly woman being attacked by a football player), it's extremely difficult to justify that the attacker is capable of murdering you with their bare hands.

Otherwise, I could legally shoot any drunk at Burger King who tries to punch me.

That is the whole problem with the Florida law.  This plus the fact that Florida unlike most places makes the prosecution prove that the act was not self defense.

All it takes is knocking someone out.  After that it would not be hard to kill someone with your bare hands.  Zimmerman has claimed Martin was on top of him punching him and causing the back of his head to hit the concrete.  I don't think it is a stretch to think someone in that situation would fear for their life.  In Florida that is all you need.

[Witchyjoshy]

Except Zimmerman's wounds aren't consistent with that, and the jury should be paying attention to that.

Zimmerman is a bald-faced liar, and I'm already pissed about the amount of people who are siding with Zimmerman on this issue.

Oh, not here, no one here is siding with Zimmerman.  I'm talking about idiots in comments.

[chitoryu12]

Unless there's an extreme difference in size, strength, and/or capability (along the lines of a small, elderly woman being attacked by a football player), it's extremely difficult to justify that the attacker is capable of murdering you with their bare hands.

Otherwise, I could legally shoot any drunk at Burger King who tries to punch me.

That is the whole problem with the Florida law.  This plus the fact that Florida unlike most places makes the prosecution prove that the act was not self defense.

All it takes is knocking someone out.  After that it would not be hard to kill someone with your bare hands.  Zimmerman has claimed Martin was on top of him punching him and causing the back of his head to hit the concrete.  I don't think it is a stretch to think someone in that situation would fear for their life.  In Florida that is all you need.

Current evidence actually indicates that this is NOT what happened at all: the medical examiner stated that it's extremely plausible that his injuries came from a single punch that caused his head to hit the curb.

I'm not exactly willing to trust Zimmerman. He's the antagonist in this situation (everything occurred because he stalked and aggressively approached someone innocent) and has been quoted as fearing black youths like Martin. I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea of him lying about the ensuing fight to make himself look like the victim, rather than an aggressive wannabe cop who got in over his head.

Edit: Magus literally made my exact post.

[m52nickerson]

Except Zimmerman's wounds aren't consistent with that, and the jury should be paying attention to that.

Zimmerman is a bald-faced liar, and I'm already pissed about the amount of people who are siding with Zimmerman on this issue.

Oh, not here, no one here is siding with Zimmerman.  I'm talking about idiots in comments.

I think Zimmerman was in the wring as soon as he stepped out of his truck.  He most likely started the fight with Martin.

Unfortunately the Jury is going to see this picture of Zimmerman taken at the scene...

(click to show/hide)

Plus you have an eye witness that says Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him.  You also have the testimony of the detectives, some of which the Judge told the jury to disregard, that they believed Zimmerman's story. 

Unless you can show that Zimmerman injured himself like that I don't find the medical examiners testimony all that convincing.

[m52nickerson]

Current evidence actually indicates that this is NOT what happened at all: the medical examiner stated that it's extremely plausible that his injuries came from a single punch that caused his head to hit the curb.

I'm not exactly willing to trust Zimmerman. He's the antagonist in this situation (everything occurred because he stalked and aggressively approached someone innocent) and has been quoted as fearing black youths like Martin. I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea of him lying about the ensuing fight to make himself look like the victim, rather than an aggressive wannabe cop who got in over his head.

Edit: Magus literally made my exact post.

You forget about the eye witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and hitting him. 

[ironbite]

OH NO!  A BOY FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE AGAINST AN UNKNOWN ASSAILANT WHO WAS STALKING HIM FROM A 7-11 TO HIS HOUSE WITH ONLY HIS LITTLE BROTHER THERE!  WHO'S ONLY CRIME WAS BEING BLACK, WEARING A HOODIE, AND GETTING SOME SNACKS!  WELL LET'S LET ZIMMERMAN OFF BECAUSE CLEARLY HE'S IN RIGHT RIGHT HERE!

Ironbite-you sound exactly like that.

[m52nickerson]

OH NO!  A BOY FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE AGAINST AN UNKNOWN ASSAILANT WHO WAS STALKING HIM FROM A 7-11 TO HIS HOUSE WITH ONLY HIS LITTLE BROTHER THERE!  WHO'S ONLY CRIME WAS BEING BLACK, WEARING A HOODIE, AND GETTING SOME SNACKS!  WELL LET'S LET ZIMMERMAN OFF BECAUSE CLEARLY HE'S IN RIGHT RIGHT HERE!

Ironbite-you sound exactly like that.

Or it could have happened just a Zimmerman has said.  Have you stopped to think of that one a second?  Innocent until proven guilty.  So far with the evidence presented I would not find him guilty.

[ironbite]

Same evidence, I'm fully convinced of his guilt.

Ironbite-what reason could you have that Martin was up to no good anyways?

[m52nickerson]

Same evidence, I'm fully convinced of his guilt.

Ironbite-what reason could you have that Martin was up to no good anyways?

There had been break-in in that community in the recent past. 

Thing is Zimmerman was not breaking any laws approaching Martin and asking him what he was doing.  So it comes down to who started the fight.  The single eye witness did not see the start of the fight.  The young women on the phone with Martin on the type has not way of knowing who started the fight.  So you are left with Zimmerman's story.  Yes, he may have started it.  I think he probably did, but not beyond a reasonable doubt.