Author Topic: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam  (Read 11439 times)

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Offline Ironchew

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2014, 11:36:45 am »
Grow some thicker skin, Aslan.

It's good to hear that ex-Muslims are taking him to task about what real abuse is like.
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Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2014, 04:25:30 pm »
Looks like this isn't over just yet. Reza Aslan made a comment on Twitter about being attacked by atheists. So now the Ex Muslims of North America has started a hashtag campaign where people share their deconversion experiences, as well as the vitriol they've received from their families.

This is a good thing. Keep this conversation going. The longer it goes on, the more muck will be raked out.

Attacked? are they coming up to him in the street and punching him?

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2014, 01:00:03 pm »
An actor, a neuroscientist and a comedian discuss a religion and its connections to society and geopolitics. A scholar of religious studies responds. Only the latter has any kind of education in a subject that is pertinent to the issue. Nobody seems to be interested in the opinions of religious historians, sociologists or social/cultural anthropologists on the issue - other people who have actual expertise in the subject and a different viewpoint than a religious scholar. It seems people are content listening mostly to laymen about this issue.

Offline Nemo

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2014, 11:27:24 pm »
While I agree that Reza Aslan has the strongest credentials, Sam Harris is pretty well written and has studied Islam quite a bit. He isn't exactly comparable to Bill Maher and Not Batman firing off their talking points. That being said, I feel someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has studied Islam extensively ever since her deconversion, would be a more appropriate opponent to debate Aslan. She knows the Quran, knows the cultures which practice Islam, and has been more or less debating Muslims constantly for years. Forget Maher. Ayaan would have Aslan squirming in his seat.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2014, 04:12:57 am »
I call the Christian god an ancient war deity? Nobody cares. I say Paul wrote the Book of Romans while he was butthurt about losing a debate? Full approval. I call Moses a war criminal? Nobody cares. I note that Muhammad was a pedophile and a thug? Cue the accusations of racism, having an "irrational fear" of the belief system the guy created, and having a personal vendetta. There is a double standard there.

I won't deny that a double standard exists, but I just have to say this:

In this post on FSTDT, Gary Cass declares that every single muslim in the United Sates is planning to kill YOU, personally, right now!  And therefore good christians must resort to violence to "Crush the vicious seed of Ishmael in Jesus name" against all muslims in America unless they convert to christianity or submit to forcible sterilization and deportation.

In the comments you say he "has a pretty clear view of Islam."

If people have called you a racist or irrationally afraid of muslims before, it might have more to do with saying a guy calling for ethnic cleansing has a "clear grasp" of the people he wants to kill then calling Muhammad a thug.

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2014, 04:30:12 am »
I call the Christian god an ancient war deity? Nobody cares. I say Paul wrote the Book of Romans while he was butthurt about losing a debate? Full approval. I call Moses a war criminal? Nobody cares. I note that Muhammad was a pedophile and a thug? Cue the accusations of racism, having an "irrational fear" of the belief system the guy created, and having a personal vendetta. There is a double standard there.

I won't deny that a double standard exists, but I just have to say this:

In this post on FSTDT, Gary Cass declares that every single muslim in the United Sates is planning to kill YOU, personally, right now!  And therefore good christians must resort to violence to "Crush the vicious seed of Ishmael in Jesus name" against all muslims in America unless they convert to christianity or submit to forcible sterilization and deportation.

In the comments you say he "has a pretty clear view of Islam."

If people have called you a racist or irrationally afraid of muslims before, it might have more to do with saying a guy calling for ethnic cleansing has a "clear grasp" of the people he wants to kill then calling Muhammad a thug.

Bingo.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 08:44:24 am »
While I agree that Reza Aslan has the strongest credentials, Sam Harris is pretty well written and has studied Islam quite a bit. He isn't exactly comparable to Bill Maher and Not Batman firing off their talking points. That being said, I feel someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has studied Islam extensively ever since her deconversion, would be a more appropriate opponent to debate Aslan. She knows the Quran, knows the cultures which practice Islam, and has been more or less debating Muslims constantly for years. Forget Maher. Ayaan would have Aslan squirming in his seat.
Harris is still a neuroscientist. No matter how well read he is, he is not an expert, just a well-read layman. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a political scientist which is closer to the subject but no, even then she is still not an expert. Someone "studying Islam" doesn't mean they are an expert in the religion as a part of the structures of different societies, it just means they are making their own interpretations about the subject and are expressing an opinion, not publishing studies for peer review. Because of this, I expect Aslan would have the upper hand on even Hirsi Ali. If someone hasn't studied the theories and methods of a relevant academic discipline they don't have the capability to do as thorough an analysis as an actual expert could. Intelligent people could make convincing sounding arguments, yes, but those probably wouldn't withstand an academical critique.

A big part of studying a discipline such as cultural anthropology is not only learning about the theories but most importantly learning how to think critically and analyze human experience. "Hard", natural sciences require and teach a different way of thinking - an appropriate tool for each job. This is why I'm personally very critical on people like Harris and Dawkins when they discuss issues they don't have expertise or an understanding taught by actual academical research.

Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2014, 10:29:03 am »
An actor, a neuroscientist and a comedian discuss a religion and its connections to society and geopolitics. A scholar of religious studies responds. Only the latter has any kind of education in a subject that is pertinent to the issue. Nobody seems to be interested in the opinions of religious historians, sociologists or social/cultural anthropologists on the issue - other people who have actual expertise in the subject and a different viewpoint than a religious scholar. It seems people are content listening mostly to laymen about this issue.

Sounds a lot like the Courtier's reply to me


Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2014, 11:20:03 am »
An actor, a neuroscientist and a comedian discuss a religion and its connections to society and geopolitics. A scholar of religious studies responds. Only the latter has any kind of education in a subject that is pertinent to the issue. Nobody seems to be interested in the opinions of religious historians, sociologists or social/cultural anthropologists on the issue - other people who have actual expertise in the subject and a different viewpoint than a religious scholar. It seems people are content listening mostly to laymen about this issue.

Sounds a lot like the Courtier's reply to me
Only if your opinion is that any academic study of religion as a part of society's structure and a cultural phenomenon is purposeless sophistry. After reading the review PZ Myers links to this seems to be his opinion with which I vehemently disagree. Pointing out that someone presents a complex phenomenon as an oversimplified caricature is not an example of Courtier's reply.

"Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology." - Terry Eagleton, a literary critic

Edit: Just thought to clarify that while I do agree on the spirit of Eagleton's criticism my opinion is based on cultural studies, not theology.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 11:28:51 am by SCarpelan »

Offline Ironchew

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2014, 11:58:37 am »
An actor, a neuroscientist and a comedian discuss a religion and its connections to society and geopolitics. A scholar of religious studies responds. Only the latter has any kind of education in a subject that is pertinent to the issue. Nobody seems to be interested in the opinions of religious historians, sociologists or social/cultural anthropologists on the issue - other people who have actual expertise in the subject and a different viewpoint than a religious scholar. It seems people are content listening mostly to laymen about this issue.

Sounds a lot like the Courtier's reply to me
Only if your opinion is that any academic study of religion as a part of society's structure and a cultural phenomenon is purposeless sophistry. After reading the review PZ Myers links to this seems to be his opinion with which I vehemently disagree. Pointing out that someone presents a complex phenomenon as an oversimplified caricature is not an example of Courtier's reply.

"Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology." - Terry Eagleton, a literary critic

Edit: Just thought to clarify that while I do agree on the spirit of Eagleton's criticism my opinion is based on cultural studies, not theology.

The point of criticizing the Courtier's Reply is that Dawkins, Harris, et. al. aren't spending a lot of time delving into the minutia of theology. They are responding to the very basic claim that a god exists; usually the response is, "I am not convinced of your claim, therefore I will not pretend that it is true." Rebutting this basic claim requires no theological background; if there was evidence that a divine entity existed and that it created the universe, religious apologists would not have to resort to dishonest word games to defend their position.

Likewise, it doesn't require much theological knowledge to show that the qualities overwhelmingly ascribed to an Abrahamic deity (omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence) are incoherent and contradictory qualities and can therefore be dismissed out of hand -- like a married bachelor, it's one of those rarified abstractions that we can conclusively show does not exist.

I disagree with Harris when he starts jumping the gun and saying that Arabs should be profiled at airports, but I don't find anything wrong with his assertion that Islam is the most dangerous religion today. There is plenty of evidence outside theology that shows this to be the case.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 12:00:22 pm by Ironchew »
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2014, 12:38:54 pm »
An actor, a neuroscientist and a comedian discuss a religion and its connections to society and geopolitics. A scholar of religious studies responds. Only the latter has any kind of education in a subject that is pertinent to the issue. Nobody seems to be interested in the opinions of religious historians, sociologists or social/cultural anthropologists on the issue - other people who have actual expertise in the subject and a different viewpoint than a religious scholar. It seems people are content listening mostly to laymen about this issue.

Sounds a lot like the Courtier's reply to me

Aside from the questionable merits of the Courtier's Reply*, it doesn't even apply in this case.

The basis of the Courtier's Reply is that you should first establish a subject to be real before you go around studying it in detail. Allah is not real, but Islam definitely is, and that's what a relevant anthropologist or religion historian studies. The actual, 100% real religion of Islam and its social and cultural impact.

*Of this I have already spoken.
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 12:55:31 pm »
Ironchew and Sigmaleph are both correct. Islam does exist, no question about that, even if I don't find its case for God to be compelling. And so the Courtier's reply wouldn't really work, since there actually is a large, diverse culture to study in the real world. That's why I really don't care what Bill Maher says about Islam, seeing as how he took the Zeitgeist movie seriously. For someone like Sam Harris, I'm generally more inclined to at least listen to what he says provided he can explain how he did his research and why he believes what he does.
"If it's white or Jewish then they're criminals, if it's two brown people killing each other ... meh, that's their culture and we should respect it ... cultural relativists should be ashamed of themselves." - Faisal Saeed Al Mutar

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 01:21:54 pm »
The point of criticizing the Courtier's Reply is that Dawkins, Harris, et. al. aren't spending a lot of time delving into the minutia of theology. They are responding to the very basic claim that a god exists; usually the response is, "I am not convinced of your claim, therefore I will not pretend that it is true." Rebutting this basic claim requires no theological background; if there was evidence that a divine entity existed and that it created the universe, religious apologists would not have to resort to dishonest word games to defend their position.

Likewise, it doesn't require much theological knowledge to show that the qualities overwhelmingly ascribed to an Abrahamic deity (omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence) are incoherent and contradictory qualities and can therefore be dismissed out of hand -- like a married bachelor, it's one of those rarified abstractions that we can conclusively show does not exist.

I disagree with Harris when he starts jumping the gun and saying that Arabs should be profiled at airports, but I don't find anything wrong with his assertion that Islam is the most dangerous religion today. There is plenty of evidence outside theology that shows this to be the case.

Oops. I think I accidentally moved the goalposts a bit - away from simplified anti-religious attitudes and towards theological debate. I don't have enough knowledge about theological issues to say anything more than the way the "new atheists" usually represent theology is oversimplified. The discussion about the existence of god doesn't really interest me since I haven't yet heard a convincing argument supporting that claim and see the probability of those arguments existing being too small to bother looking for them. Religions themselves, reasons that people believe in god(s) or otherwise practice religions and the parts they represent in the puzzle that is humanity are among things that intrigue me.

Claiming that Islam certainly is the most dangerous religion is utter horseshit. There is a possibility that it somehow is but there is nothing obvious in it. Religion is something that can't be analyzed by separating it from the societies and cultures that have formed it, influence it and are formed and influenced by it. If you only look at the religion and its texts and doctrines you miss most of the picture. For example, most of the radical sects in Islam have been born in the Middle East and have spread from there to the rest of the world. To understand why this is, you have to understand the political and cultural circumstances in the societies there to see how they have formed. To understand why they have spread elsewhere you have to understand the reality and everyday life of the Muslims in different parts of the world. While most Muslims don't live in the Mid East it's a hotbed of sectarian and political conflicts that influence the Muslim community globally. Also, religious interpretations justifying things like female genital mutilation and burqas have their roots in local cultural traditions and patriarchy. These express themselves through the religion but the roots of the problems are elsewhere.

Are certain expressions of religion more fertile ground for different abuses? Yeah. Are all? No. Maybe authoritarianism and certain personality types that thrive and are comfortable in that kind of environment are the root causes and removing the religious aspect might make them look other ways to fulfill this need. In my opinion there are very few comfortably definite answers to be found here, mostly only different viewpoints, different degrees of probability and more questions.

Just one example of how a fundamental moral problem is surprisingly little influenced by religion: global poll about justification of violence toward civilians. There are a lot of variations between different geographical areas but within any given area the influence of religiousity is statistically insignificant. Oh, and the area where people disagree most with civilians committing violence towards other civilians being justified in any circumstances? Middle East and North Africa.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 01:24:47 pm by SCarpelan »

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 04:08:38 pm »
If you ever wanted to know what actual reason and logic look like, just look at Sigma and SCarpelan's posts.  Because holy shit, that's awesome.
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Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2014, 12:58:21 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVl3BJoEoAU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVl3BJoEoAU</a>
Pretty hueg interview with Cenk Uyger and Sam Harris