Heliocentrism, the most widely accepted lie ever told?

[QueenofHearts]

All of you are very clearly wrong. I am the center of the universe. Not the sun, not Earth, not God; ME!!!! 

[Patches]

You're correct, AE. We use the phrase because in the "center" of our solar system is the "sun". Blows the mind, doesn't it?

Not so much, actually.  The idea that people are still clinging to outdated nonsense produced by Copernicus and Galileo and Darwin would be amusing if it wasn't so poisonous to society.

Wait? Are you actually trying to imply that heliocentric theory and a spherical earth are poisoning our society? How? I can kind of see how evolution can possibly harm society, it does not actually, but it has room for abuse, but fundamental observations of our planet and universe? Observations that barely affect our lives somehow poison our society? That's special.

But don't you see how important it is?  If humans aren't the center of the universe, it means that we're not God's favored creation, and if we're not God's favored creation, then there's just no reason to do anything and everyone would rape and murder and rape all the time.

Really, it's the same argument they give against evolution, because it makes humans less special.  For some reason they think that the ONLY way for human existence to be worth anything, humans have to be the most important, specialest, awesomest things in the universe.  Because if you're not, I mean, what's the point?

[Atheism Exposed]

You're correct, AE. We use the phrase because in the "center" of our solar system is the "sun". Blows the mind, doesn't it?

Not so much, actually.  The idea that people are still clinging to outdated nonsense produced by Copernicus and Galileo and Darwin would be amusing if it wasn't so poisonous to society.

Wait? Are you actually trying to imply that heliocentric theory and a spherical earth are poisoning our society? How? I can kind of see how evolution can possibly harm society, it does not actually, but it has room for abuse, but fundamental observations of our planet and universe? Observations that barely affect our lives somehow poison our society? That's special.

Except they DO affect your lives in that they colour your entire worldview.  Filling kids' heads with false doctrines deliberately divorced from God's word can't really be considered anything other than social poison.

Generations of kids now have grown up with their minds infiltrated with Atheistic lies, believing that we are each insignificant specks in an irrelevant backwater of this huge universe and therefore you and your actions don't matter one iota. 

Telling children that they are just temporary arrangements of chemicals assembled via random chance is just a calculated move to keep them from discovering the Holy Spirit, personally I consider that child abuse.

[Askold]

Did you do know that this site has several christians and other religious people who have no trouble accepting science? Science and religion do not have to be enemies, we look for them for different reasons.

Religion can give us peace of mind, help those who seem lost in life and comfort those who are troubled.

Science helps us understand how this world in which we live in works.

[Sylvana]

Except they DO affect your lives in that they colour your entire worldview.  Filling kids' heads with false doctrines deliberately divorced from God's word can't really be considered anything other than social poison.

Generations of kids now have grown up with their minds infiltrated with Atheistic lies, believing that we are each insignificant specks in an irrelevant backwater of this huge universe and therefore you and your actions don't matter one iota. 

Telling children that they are just temporary arrangements of chemicals assembled via random chance is just a calculated move to keep them from discovering the Holy Spirit, personally I consider that child abuse.

Just to clarify here, are you saying that the telling of lies to children is the social poison, or is it the actual science itself?
Alternatively is the social poison you speak of really just the lack of endorsement for your preferred religion? For example, would you be ok with children being taught something that is absolutely true and has been determined to be true to a supernatural degree but does not follow your religion? In this case the children are not being lied to, but it fails to endorse your religion.

I think we can all agree that lying to children about the truths of this world is child abuse. From that position though we need an objective means of determining the truth to teach to children.

<Unrelated note: I am sure you are a troll now more than ever before, that last post was way too eloquent. either way keep this up its amusing.>

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

All of you are very clearly wrong. I am the center of the universe. Not the sun, not Earth, not God; ME!!!! 

I'll accept that

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

You're correct, AE. We use the phrase because in the "center" of our solar system is the "sun". Blows the mind, doesn't it?

Not so much, actually.  The idea that people are still clinging to outdated nonsense produced by Copernicus and Galileo and Darwin would be amusing if it wasn't so poisonous to society.

Wait? Are you actually trying to imply that heliocentric theory and a spherical earth are poisoning our society? How? I can kind of see how evolution can possibly harm society, it does not actually, but it has room for abuse, but fundamental observations of our planet and universe? Observations that barely affect our lives somehow poison our society? That's special.

Except they DO affect your lives in that they colour your entire worldview.  Filling kids' heads with false doctrines ...can't really be considered anything other than social poison.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD8ZtM1sWgI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD8ZtM1sWgI</a>

Generations of kids now have grown up with their minds infiltrated with Atheistic lies, believing that we are each insignificant specks in an irrelevant backwater of this huge universe and therefore you and your actions don't matter one iota. 

Telling children that they are just temporary arrangements of chemicals assembled via random chance is just a calculated move to keep them from discovering the Holy Spirit, personally I consider that child abuse.

And correctly surmising that the Earth revolves around the Sun accomplishes this how?

[Scotsgit]

You're correct, AE. We use the phrase because in the "center" of our solar system is the "sun". Blows the mind, doesn't it?

Not so much, actually.  The idea that people are still clinging to outdated nonsense produced by Copernicus and Galileo and Darwin would be amusing if it wasn't so poisonous to society.

Wait? Are you actually trying to imply that heliocentric theory and a spherical earth are poisoning our society? How? I can kind of see how evolution can possibly harm society, it does not actually, but it has room for abuse, but fundamental observations of our planet and universe? Observations that barely affect our lives somehow poison our society? That's special.

Except they DO affect your lives in that they colour your entire worldview.  Filling kids' heads with false doctrines deliberately divorced from God's word can't really be considered anything other than social poison.

What like that you should divorce someone instead of forgiving them, or lie about them or indeed sleep with your brother's wife?  Or that the richest man in your country should lead its main religious group?  That kind of thing?

[Rime]

Did you do know that this site has several christians and other religious people who have no trouble accepting science? Science and religion do not have to be enemies, we look for them for different reasons.

Religion can give us peace of mind, help those who seem lost in life and comfort those who are troubled.

Science helps us understand how this world in which we live in works.

Fundamentalists have to because science threatens their influence and prestige.  They'd actually have to emulate their savior as opposed to behave like the high priests that had him nailed to a cross for proclaiming he was the messiah.

[Witchyjoshy]

You're correct, AE. We use the phrase because in the "center" of our solar system is the "sun". Blows the mind, doesn't it?

Not so much, actually.  The idea that people are still clinging to outdated nonsense produced by Copernicus and Galileo and Darwin would be amusing if it wasn't so poisonous to society.

Wait? Are you actually trying to imply that heliocentric theory and a spherical earth are poisoning our society? How? I can kind of see how evolution can possibly harm society, it does not actually, but it has room for abuse, but fundamental observations of our planet and universe? Observations that barely affect our lives somehow poison our society? That's special.

Except they DO affect your lives in that they colour your entire worldview.  Filling kids' heads with false doctrines deliberately divorced from God's word can't really be considered anything other than social poison.

Generations of kids now have grown up with their minds infiltrated with Atheistic lies, believing that we are each insignificant specks in an irrelevant backwater of this huge universe and therefore you and your actions don't matter one iota. 

Telling children that they are just temporary arrangements of chemicals assembled via random chance is just a calculated move to keep them from discovering the Holy Spirit, personally I consider that child abuse.

Called the type of argument he was going for!

Atheism Exposed, you're really predictable

[Rime]

Except they DO affect your lives in that they colour your entire worldview.  Filling kids' heads with false doctrines deliberately divorced from God's word can't really be considered anything other than social poison.

Who says that the theory of evolution is divorced from God's word?  He supposedly invented it because it seems pretty intelligent to have lifeforms with the capability to adapt to their environment.

Generations of kids now have grown up with their minds infiltrated with Atheistic lies, believing that we are each insignificant specks in an irrelevant backwater of this huge universe and therefore you and your actions don't matter one iota. 

Just because I believe that justice is a human construct rather than a divine cog in the workings of the universe doesn’t mean I shouldn’t try to make the world around me a better place. Even boiled down to the most utilitarian attitude, if I can aid others to benefit with a little help, almost always, everyone will. Even being a “random collection of molecules” still means that you ARE worth something because you have potential to contribute to and benefit from being part of society.  It is equally feasible to take your opinion that being the result of divine tinkering for a specific purpose; I can regard myself as inherently worth more and superior to others who do believe the same thing and treat them like second class citizens.  Especially when my holy book says so.

Telling children that they are just temporary arrangements of chemicals assembled via random chance is just a calculated move to keep them from discovering the Holy Spirit, personally I consider that child abuse.

You’re bashing the theory of evolution?  Here's your opportunity to make me see the wisdom in believing a deity who was supposedly so smart but needed to completely violate every law he supposedly constructed for the purpose of creating (or is that impressing) mankind; and in addition having to tinker with the universe whenever it didn't seem to be progressing right. 

He couldn’t just set up the creation of the first cell and have everything roll along according to the science He was supposed to have set up?  He had to put on such a vulgar display of power that it would cause even Industrial Light and Magic to curl up into a cataleptic ball from the shame?

[JohnE]

Note to christian forumites: I'm still operating under the assumption that AE is for real, but I don't consider him as a poor reflection of christians as a whole. He's just one loon. If anything, he's making the majority look better by comparison.

Note to AE: If you are an atheist troll trying to make christians look bad, you're failing. On the other hand, it occurs to me you might be a christian troll pretending to hold beliefs far more extreme and ridiculous than you actually do, thereby intentionally making most christians look better in comparison, and bringing believers and non-believers together against ideas both agree are absurd, in which case, well played, sir. Well played.

[Vypernight]

Late to the party, but I thought I'd throw in my thoughts as well.

(a) we have the exact same starfield visible in the night sky every night.  If the earth moved around the sun once per year, the stars in that starfield would change position on a nightly basis, this doesn't happen.

Can be debunked with a $10 telescope from Toys R Us.  Or is Toys R Us in on the atheist conspiracy as well?

(b) the perfect correlation between the sizes of the moon and sun as seen from earth.  This is the only set of bodies in the KNOWN UNIVERSE where a perfect eclipse is visible.

And if we were living on Draco 3, then Draco 01 and Draco 2 would have the same correlations.  Doesn't mean they're the center as well.   

(c) the Moon's tidal force upon the earth is far stronger than the sun's.  According the The Atheist Newton's gravitational equation and the mass/distance figures mandated by the heliocentric worldview, F = GmM / r^2, the Sun's gravitational pull upon the Earth is more than 100 times larger than the Moon's, yet the Moon exerts a far greater tidal force than the sun upon the earth.  Clearly either the equations underpinning heliocentrism OR the values they ascribe to the heavenly bodies are WRONG!

The moon is closer so of course it's stronger.  Also I don't get people using scientific principles to disprove science.

[Askold]

The moon is closer so of course it's stronger.  Also I don't get people using scientific principles to disprove science.

Well to be fair, that is how you disprove and improve science. Find a hole in the theory, find something that does not match with the other scientific formulas and you know that something is wrong.

Part 2 should be making a new theory which works with the new data and is closer to the truth.

Concerning the tidal effects of the sun and moon though. Turns out this is more complicated than you might think. In fact scientists have been wondering about this and I quickly found a few articles about it, some quite suprising.

This article is based on the most commonly used theory:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/%E2%80%8Chbase/tide.html

Even though the Sun is 391 times as far away from the Earth as the Moon, its force on the Earth is about 175 times as large. Yet its tidal effect is smaller than that of the Moon because tides are caused by the difference in gravity field across the Earth. The Earth's diameter is such a small fraction of the Sun-Earth distance that the gravity field changes by only a factor of 1.00017 across the Earth. The actual force differential across the Earth is 0.00017 x 174.5 = 0.03 times the Moon's force, compared to 0.068 difference across the Earth for the Moon's force. The actual tidal influence then is then 44% of that of the Moon.

This article also mentions and explains the other theories, but my meager understanding of math is not enough for this. It does provide sources for those interested in the subject.
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/mathis/mathis21.htm



So... Does this mean that science has failed? No, it simply means that the current theories must be improved or replaced. We have known that Newton's model isn't 100% correct for years. But we know that in some aspects it is close enough. We use it in some matters and when we need more precise calculations and handle stuff like astronomy and planets and their gravitational effects we turn to Einstein's theories which are one step better than Newton's.

Teachings Newtons laws is like putting a child on a tricycle: You let him learn how to drive that and once he has the basics and has grown a bit you can give him a two-wheeled bike. But you still give him training wheels. And so we advance, one step at a time, we still have not solved the mysteries of the universe but we keep getting closer to it.

Still... The heliocentric system has stood for centuries (longer in some civilisations) because no one has been able to disprove it. Earth centered solar-system model would not be better in explaining the tides and it would fail in other details as well so we stick to heliocentrism.

[chitoryu12]

You're correct, AE. We use the phrase because in the "center" of our solar system is the "sun". Blows the mind, doesn't it?

Not so much, actually.  The idea that people are still clinging to outdated nonsense produced by Copernicus and Galileo and Darwin would be amusing if it wasn't so poisonous to society.

Wait? Are you actually trying to imply that heliocentric theory and a spherical earth are poisoning our society? How? I can kind of see how evolution can possibly harm society, it does not actually, but it has room for abuse, but fundamental observations of our planet and universe? Observations that barely affect our lives somehow poison our society? That's special.

Except they DO affect your lives in that they colour your entire worldview.  Filling kids' heads with false doctrines deliberately divorced from God's word can't really be considered anything other than social poison.

Generations of kids now have grown up with their minds infiltrated with Atheistic lies, believing that we are each insignificant specks in an irrelevant backwater of this huge universe and therefore you and your actions don't matter one iota. 

Telling children that they are just temporary arrangements of chemicals assembled via random chance is just a calculated move to keep them from discovering the Holy Spirit, personally I consider that child abuse.

You literally have not responded properly to a single point anyone has raised here. You've just kinda babbled without explaining why you're correct and we're not.