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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Dynamic Dragon on May 17, 2013, 09:31:09 am

Title: Alternate History
Post by: Dynamic Dragon on May 17, 2013, 09:31:09 am
This is a thread for discussing alternate history.

For example, the election of 1960 was very close.  What if Nixon had won?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: wrightway on May 17, 2013, 10:46:31 am
Where's Dr. Manhattan when you need him?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: ironbite on May 17, 2013, 03:28:40 pm
Off doing space things.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on May 17, 2013, 06:15:26 pm
Once I heard about an alternate history fanfic of what would have happened if George Washington had an invisibility ring.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Zygarde on May 17, 2013, 06:22:50 pm
I'm a little obsessed with the alternate Cold War history of what would happen if the Soviet Union decided to attack America and start World War III.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: wrightway on May 17, 2013, 10:45:13 pm
I liked the one where Hitler's hatred of Jews was the result of a time traveling Stephen Colbert snubbing him because Colbert was in love with Jonathan Liebowitz.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Meshakhad on May 18, 2013, 02:02:52 pm
I'm a huge fan of alternate history. Here's one scenario my dad and I came up with while visiting some Civil War battlefields last year:

During the 1860 US Presidential election, Abraham Lincoln is defeated by John C. Breckinridge, the pro-slavery candidate. The Civil War is, temporarily, averted.

However, in 1863, a Southern slave owner visits Boston, and brings his slaves with him. While there, he is arrested by the local authorities, and his slaves are freed by the Massachusetts government, in accordance with the state's anti-slavery laws. The slave owner sues Massachusetts, claiming theft of his property. In June of 1866, the Supreme Court rules in his favor, effectively making slavery legal throughout the United States.

This sends the anti-slavery North into a fury. In November, the Northern states declare their intent to secede from the Union, establishing the Federated States of America (commonly called the Federation), with its capital at New York City. President Breckinridge, aware of pre-1860 secessionist sentiment in the South, declines to stop them.

However, tensions soon rise between the Federation and the Union. Every free state in the Union has left, including California and Oregon. But without their votes, the Union quickly passes legislation making slavery the law of the land, even in the territories. Union troops are deployed into territories, and plans are made to bring in more states. The Federation correctly perceives this as a move designed to split their nation in two, isolating California and Oregon. In response, Californian troops enter modern-day Nevada and Arizona, clashing with the Union. By 1868, the Union and Federation are at war. While fighting is initially concentrated in the West, both sides soon decide that the best approach is to deliver a knockout blow.

We haven't figured out the details, but in all likelihood, the Federation would prevail. However, we're not sure what would happen next. Would the Federation simply claim the western territories? Or would they try to annex the Union? And if so, would they reestablish the United States, or would the Federation take its place, perhaps with the intention of making a break with the slavery-tainted past?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Reality Warper on May 19, 2013, 01:38:58 pm
I read this one interesting scenario where Ming China established a huge trading network.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Dynamic Dragon on May 21, 2013, 10:22:25 am
I read one about the Pope denouncing the Holocaust.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: nickiknack on May 22, 2013, 12:50:39 pm
Ever check out Harry Turtledove's novels?? I know he writes a whole lot of alternate history, especially about the Civil War.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Meshakhad on May 22, 2013, 02:27:58 pm
Ever check out Harry Turtledove's novels?? I know he writes a whole lot of alternate history, especially about the Civil War.

Yeah, I've read some of his stuff.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: R. U. Sirius on May 22, 2013, 03:00:47 pm
Turtledove's okay; my major issue with him is his tendency to draw 1-1 parallels between the real world and his fictional one, rather than trying to explore the entirely new directions alternate history can take.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: DiscoBerry on May 24, 2013, 06:17:03 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BUzxvrWNBY
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 25, 2013, 12:55:51 am
What if the other Kennedy had not been assassinated in 1968?

What if the peace movement had successfully cultivated an alliance with the trade union movement?

What if the October surprise had been found out before the 1980 election?

What if Gustavus Adolfus Magnus had survived Lutzen?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: lord gibbon on May 25, 2013, 01:04:50 am
Ah, a topic dear to my heart as a historian in training. A personal favorite of mine is, "What if it had not rained before the Battle of Waterloo?" I have to say that Napoleon would likely have won, and that would have been devastating for the Coalition.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 25, 2013, 08:16:16 am
Ah, a topic dear to my heart as a historian in training. A personal favorite of mine is, "What if it had not rained before the Battle of Waterloo?" I have to say that Napoleon would likely have won, and that would have been devastating for the Coalition.

That's some bullshit there. Even if Napoleon managed to beat the British in four hours up a hill outnumbered, he had to beat the Prussians (who turned up at midday), again with a bigger, unblooded force. Even if he somehow managed to destroy both armies, the Russians were only a month away.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: lord gibbon on May 25, 2013, 04:21:25 pm
Ah, a topic dear to my heart as a historian in training. A personal favorite of mine is, "What if it had not rained before the Battle of Waterloo?" I have to say that Napoleon would likely have won, and that would have been devastating for the Coalition.

That's some bullshit there. Even if Napoleon managed to beat the British in four hours up a hill outnumbered, he had to beat the Prussians (who turned up at midday), again with a bigger, unblooded force. Even if he somehow managed to destroy both armies, the Russians were only a month away.

Perhaps, but think of the morale blow. The Kings of Europe had just spent several wars trying to beat him, and if he won at Waterloo, it would have clearly established that he was back in power. The Italians, Polish, French, Danish ect. would have flocked to his banner as they did the last time, and the coalition forces would be rather demoralized. It took all those wars to stop him the first time, and now they have to do it again? As for the battle itself, without the rain, it likely would have started earlier AND Napoleon would have been able to make better use of his artillery, a specialty of his.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 25, 2013, 07:23:31 pm
I think a more interesting alternative history would involve Napoleon not losing Paris in 1814, continuing his ass-whoopery and receiving reinforcements. Or, I don't know, winning at Trafalgar somehow. Ninjaing across the English channel by tricking Nelson into sailing to Central America?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: lord gibbon on May 25, 2013, 07:37:35 pm
Oh, I hear you there. I've actually written the framework for an A.H. where Napoleon assassinated Nelson at the start of Trafalgar, and the ensuing confusion wrecked the British fleet. I'm honestly stuck on weather the British populace would be more aggressive (how dare he destroy the fleet!?) or less (he destroyed the fleet, do what chance do we have?) But Waterloo is such a defining moment of history that it's very fascinating imagining an alternate.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 25, 2013, 07:47:00 pm
Collingwood probably still would have won the battle. You'd need something a little more spectacular than an assassination- sabotage in harbour would do it, not that the French could have managed it. Or my idea of tricking the RN into think you're sailing to the West Indies to wreck up some shit there.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Meshakhad on May 26, 2013, 05:36:14 am
I've also got several ideas regarding Israeli history:

What if... the agreement between David Ben-Gurion and Prince Faisal hadn't fallen through, and the Arabs and Jews had reached an accommodation?
(click to show/hide)

What if... the US had decided to support the Arab nations against Israel, and the Soviet Union had backed Israel?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: dpareja on May 26, 2013, 06:20:25 am
What if... the US had decided to support the Arab nations against Israel, and the Soviet Union had backed Israel?
(click to show/hide)

But since Israel was formed from the British Mandate of Palestine, the US not backing Israel might've driven a wedge in NATO and another wedge in the UN Security Council.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 26, 2013, 07:37:24 am
What if the experienced admiral who was planned to lead the Spanish Armada had not died, leaving a hack aristocrat in charge? What if the armada had managed to land?

Alternatively, what if England had stayed Catholic, and the Civil War never happened?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: R. U. Sirius on May 26, 2013, 10:56:14 am
What if Hitler had died in the trenches of WWI? Let's leave in place the assumption that a different charismatic, totalitarian leader would have risen to lead Germany back to economic stability based on war; would the Holocaust still have happened? The racist policies of the Third Reich in general? Would the Axis Powers have allied the same way, or for the same reasons?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Random Gal on May 26, 2013, 12:54:47 pm
I've wondered what would have happened if the Saxons had won at Hastings, considering how close the battle was and then only because the Saxons were temporarily weakened from having to fight off the Vikings earlier.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Meshakhad on May 26, 2013, 02:05:29 pm
I've wondered what would have happened if the Saxons had won at Hastings, considering how close the battle was and then only because the Saxons were temporarily weakened from having to fight off the Vikings earlier.

For one, it's likely that English as we know it would never have developed. Britain today (and anywhere they had spread themselves) would be speaking a language much closer to German.

For another, I think France would have become stronger earlier, not having to deal with English kings ruling half their country.

An interesting possibility is that without the Norman conquest of Britain, there might never have been a Norman invasion of Ireland. If so, it's likely that the High Kingdom of Ireland would have solidified during the Middle Ages. Not only would the centuries of English oppression not have happened, but Ireland would have become a player in European politics.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sixth Monarchist on May 26, 2013, 06:45:18 pm
In a shocking subversion of standard FSTDT etiquette, a forumite steps forward and... deals with the OP. Some asspulling may occur.

A Nixon win in 1960 would've probably meant Watergate in 1964. We can safely assume that the Cuban Missile Crisis would play out in a similar manner, because a) there's only one sensible option in that scenario, and JFK took it, and b) this would be a very short post from anyone otherwise.

Watergate '64* would happen because Nixon was the kind of crazy bastard who would've done it anyway. Let's not forget that he was easily on course to win in 1972, but decided to cheat anyhow.

With Nixon resigning around 1966, this makes Henry Cabot Lodge the new Gerald Ford. By some theories, Lodge cost Nixon the election by pledging, unauthorised, to include at least one African-American in the Cabinet, thus losing votes in the South, so... the Civil Rights Act, or some form of it, might have passed around 1967, but similarly it might have taken a Democrat President from 1968 to pass it.

My guess is that Vietnam and the Civil Rights Act would have still happened, but in the longer term, the Reagan Presidency might have got lost in the shuffle. If Lodge passed the CRA, then the modern perceptions of the two parties might have swapped. That said, some form of Reaganomics, or else a Libertarian platform of some kind, would most likely have arisen around 1976, due to the economic issues brought about by the oil shock of 1973 and Watergate causing a loss of trust in government. The Civil Rights era and the Keynesian consensus might, if anything, have died a little earlier.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on May 27, 2013, 12:38:31 am
I got the impression that Nixon had some kind of messiah complex, believing that he really is the better candidate and that even a possibility of losing is too much because he feared what might happen if he isn't in charge. So I have no trouble believing that he would have done "watergate" type shenanigans to ensure his victory (since if he is not the president the world is DOOOOOMED!) but just because of that insanity of his I'm not so sure how would the missile crisis ended if he had been in charge.

There were way too many things affecting that outcome, particularly misconseptions on both sides. Add another slightly insane leader to that mess and who knows how it would end.

Besides one of the main reasons why the USSR decided to send the missiles was that after the bay of the pigs fiasco they thought that Kennedy was weak and would not dare to do anything about it. In fact I've read some interpretations that they actually thought that Kennedy was just a puppet and the US military was in charge of the country. (unfortunately I can't seem to find anything to back up that claim, it might have been just someone's opinion anyway.)

And now that I did some reading on the subject, WHAT THE HELL?!
Quote
Arguably the most dangerous moment in the crisis was only recognized during the Cuban Missile Crisis Havana conference in October 2002. Attended by many of the veterans of the crisis, they all learned that on October 27, 1962 the USS Beale had tracked and dropped signaling depth charges (the size of hand grenades) on the B-59, a Soviet Project 641 (NATO designation Foxtrot) submarine which, unknown to the US, was armed with a 15 kiloton[citation needed] nuclear torpedo. Running out of air, the Soviet submarine was surrounded by American warships and desperately needed to surface. An argument broke out among three officers on the B-59, including submarine captain Valentin Savitsky, political officer Ivan Semonovich Maslennikov, and Deputy brigade commander Captain 2nd rank (US Navy Commander rank equivalent) Vasili Arkhipov. An exhausted Savitsky became furious and ordered that the nuclear torpedo on board be made combat ready. Accounts differ about whether Commander Arkhipov convinced Savitsky not to make the attack, or whether Savitsky himself finally concluded that the only reasonable choice left open to him was to come to the surface.[92]:303, 317 During the conference Robert McNamara stated that nuclear war had come much closer than people had thought. Thomas Blanton, director of the National Security Archive, said, "A guy called Vasili Arkhipov saved the world."
Source: Wikipedia.

How about that for alternate history, if those three officers had been a bit more scared, that submarine might have started the third World war. Seriously, it would not have taken much to tip the balance, what if one of those depth charges had fallen closer and they had thought that the danger is even greater? What if they would have had trouble sleeping last night and had been really tired on top of all the stress? Maybe if Arkhipov had gotten sick due to poor coffee and had been confined to the toilet and the one person arguing against using the nuke hadn't been in the argument at all?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 27, 2013, 02:02:44 am
Besides one of the main reasons why the USSR decided to send the missiles was that after the bay of the pigs fiasco they thought that Kennedy was weak and would not dare to do anything about it.

I don't want to provoke another CMC discussion (needless to say I think Kennedy managed the crisis in a criminally dangerous way for no reason), but there is actually substantial evidence against this. The Soviets consistently said that they sent weapons to Cuba in the sincere desire to defend Cuba. They didn't think it would be an issue.

Quote
Arguably the most dangerous moment in the crisis was only recognized during the Cuban Missile Crisis Havana conference in October 2002. Attended by many of the veterans of the crisis, they all learned that on October 27, 1962 the USS Beale had tracked and dropped signaling depth charges (the size of hand grenades) on the B-59, a Soviet Project 641 (NATO designation Foxtrot) submarine which, unknown to the US, was armed with a 15 kiloton[citation needed] nuclear torpedo. Running out of air, the Soviet submarine was surrounded by American warships and desperately needed to surface. An argument broke out among three officers on the B-59, including submarine captain Valentin Savitsky, political officer Ivan Semonovich Maslennikov, and Deputy brigade commander Captain 2nd rank (US Navy Commander rank equivalent) Vasili Arkhipov. An exhausted Savitsky became furious and ordered that the nuclear torpedo on board be made combat ready. Accounts differ about whether Commander Arkhipov convinced Savitsky not to make the attack, or whether Savitsky himself finally concluded that the only reasonable choice left open to him was to come to the surface.[92]:303, 317 During the conference Robert McNamara stated that nuclear war had come much closer than people had thought. Thomas Blanton, director of the National Security Archive, said, "A guy called Vasili Arkhipov saved the world."
Source: Wikipedia.

How about that for alternate history, if those three officers had been a bit more scared, that submarine might have started the third World war. Seriously, it would not have taken much to tip the balance, what if one of those depth charges had fallen closer and they had thought that the danger is even greater? What if they would have had trouble sleeping last night and had been really tired on top of all the stress? Maybe if Arkhipov had gotten sick due to poor coffee and had been confined to the toilet and the one person arguing against using the nuke hadn't been in the argument at all?

Ever seen the movie K-19 the Widowmaker? Despite the absurd title, it's actually a reasonably accurate movie, regarding the meltdown of a nuclear reactor aboard a state-of-the-art Soviet submarine circa 1960. Liam Neeson plays Vasili Arkhipov. That's right, Arkhipov saved the world from nuclear holocaust twice.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Jack the Monster on May 28, 2013, 09:20:36 am
In a shocking subversion of standard FSTDT etiquette, a forumite steps forward and... deals with the OP. Some asspulling may occur.

A Nixon win in 1960 would've probably meant Watergate in 1964. We can safely assume that the Cuban Missile Crisis would play out in a similar manner, because a) there's only one sensible option in that scenario, and JFK took it, and b) this would be a very short post from anyone otherwise.

Watergate '64* would happen because Nixon was the kind of crazy bastard who would've done it anyway. Let's not forget that he was easily on course to win in 1972, but decided to cheat anyhow.

With Nixon resigning around 1966, this makes Henry Cabot Lodge the new Gerald Ford. By some theories, Lodge cost Nixon the election by pledging, unauthorised, to include at least one African-American in the Cabinet, thus losing votes in the South, so... the Civil Rights Act, or some form of it, might have passed around 1967, but similarly it might have taken a Democrat President from 1968 to pass it.

My guess is that Vietnam and the Civil Rights Act would have still happened, but in the longer term, the Reagan Presidency might have got lost in the shuffle. If Lodge passed the CRA, then the modern perceptions of the two parties might have swapped. That said, some form of Reaganomics, or else a Libertarian platform of some kind, would most likely have arisen around 1976, due to the economic issues brought about by the oil shock of 1973 and Watergate causing a loss of trust in government. The Civil Rights era and the Keynesian consensus might, if anything, have died a little earlier.

(click to show/hide)

Of course, all that's assuming that Nixon didn't get assassinated like Kennedy did.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: mythbuster43 on May 30, 2013, 01:44:42 am
I have to wonder if the Civil War would have played out differently--and earlier--if John C. Fremont won the Election of 1856.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Shane for Wax on May 30, 2013, 01:49:11 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BUzxvrWNBY

I've read the book, Fatherland. I got shit for it because of the swastika on the cover. It was an interesting read.

I wrote an alt. history where the Korean war didn't happen, but instead World War 2 "restarted".
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: mythbuster43 on May 30, 2013, 02:17:52 am
Wouldn't that be World War III.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 30, 2013, 04:01:30 am
I wrote an alt. history where the Korean war didn't happen, but instead World War 2 "restarted".

Against the Soviets? How did you get around nuclear weapons?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sixth Monarchist on May 30, 2013, 01:43:37 pm
I wrote an alt. history where the Korean war didn't happen, but instead World War 2 "restarted".

Against the Soviets? How did you get around nuclear weapons?

The safest assumption is that they don't get fired. The thing is, despite many, many near-misses since 1945, there's never been a nuclear war for good reason: even the most cynical, megalomaniacal zealot of a politician would struggle to find a scenario in which ruling a barren wasteland from a bunker is desirable, and you'd have to be incredibly cynical to believe that of an opponent - even the North Korean government would want people to forcibly starve and shove into labour camps.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 30, 2013, 06:20:36 pm
I wrote an alt. history where the Korean war didn't happen, but instead World War 2 "restarted".

Against the Soviets? How did you get around nuclear weapons?

The safest assumption is that they don't get fired. The thing is, despite many, many near-misses since 1945, there's never been a nuclear war for good reason: even the most cynical, megalomaniacal zealot of a politician would struggle to find a scenario in which ruling a barren wasteland from a bunker is desirable, and you'd have to be incredibly cynical to believe that of an opponent - even the North Korean government would want people to forcibly starve and shove into labour camps.

This is why World War 3 was impossible (and nuclear weapons are a good thing). You can't threaten the vital interests of a nuclear state; you can't beat a nuclear state in a war, in other words. You basically only exist because they let you.

Even if you assume you could beat them eight times out of ten, the risk of nuclear destruction is still much, much too high to be acceptable. So you don't go to war in the first place. This is precisely why two nuclear powers have never fought a major war.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sigmaleph on May 30, 2013, 08:05:27 pm
I wrote an alt. history where the Korean war didn't happen, but instead World War 2 "restarted".

Against the Soviets? How did you get around nuclear weapons?

The safest assumption is that they don't get fired. The thing is, despite many, many near-misses since 1945, there's never been a nuclear war for good reason: even the most cynical, megalomaniacal zealot of a politician would struggle to find a scenario in which ruling a barren wasteland from a bunker is desirable, and you'd have to be incredibly cynical to believe that of an opponent - even the North Korean government would want people to forcibly starve and shove into labour camps.

This is why World War 3 was impossible (and nuclear weapons are a good thing). You can't threaten the vital interests of a nuclear state; you can't beat a nuclear state in a war, in other words. You basically only exist because they let you.

Even if you assume you could beat them eight times out of ten, the risk of nuclear destruction is still much, much too high to be acceptable. So you don't go to war in the first place. This is precisely why two nuclear powers have never fought a major war.

Nuclear weapons have drastically reduced the "amount of things we need to go wrong for human extinction"* threshold. I wouldn't call that a good thing.



*"Things" is a very vague measure, I know. Weigh them by probability or whatever, you get the basic idea.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Shane for Wax on May 30, 2013, 08:43:34 pm
I didn't think anyone would actually give a shit about it...

I wrote it ages ago. I was like 14. I hadn't world built enough to tell you much of anything.

Also I actually called it World War 2 1/2 in-verse. The thing is that 1) Hitler didn't commit suicide, and 2) Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, but it didn't end the Pacific side. I still didn't get very far with the whole world building thing, like I said. And I've lost all motivation really to try to get back to it.

It was ten years ago and I was mostly fiddle-farting with the idea of okay, Hitler is still alive and yada yada. I don't know why you expect me to go into detail. I barely remember what I was even trying to do with it.

I don't have the manuscript on this computer either so I can't really check.

As for the actual question, the Soviets were Allies. A lot of different things went down when WW2 went into a 'lull' as it were.

Basically: world building, or lack thereof, is why I can't answer the questions wanted and I'm sorry.

Also as for nuclear war all I have to say is Fallout. And before anyone says anything it's AU where nuclear fallout is concerned amongst other things. And I recognize that.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 31, 2013, 04:02:18 am
I wrote an alt. history where the Korean war didn't happen, but instead World War 2 "restarted".

Against the Soviets? How did you get around nuclear weapons?

The safest assumption is that they don't get fired. The thing is, despite many, many near-misses since 1945, there's never been a nuclear war for good reason: even the most cynical, megalomaniacal zealot of a politician would struggle to find a scenario in which ruling a barren wasteland from a bunker is desirable, and you'd have to be incredibly cynical to believe that of an opponent - even the North Korean government would want people to forcibly starve and shove into labour camps.

This is why World War 3 was impossible (and nuclear weapons are a good thing). You can't threaten the vital interests of a nuclear state; you can't beat a nuclear state in a war, in other words. You basically only exist because they let you.

Even if you assume you could beat them eight times out of ten, the risk of nuclear destruction is still much, much too high to be acceptable. So you don't go to war in the first place. This is precisely why two nuclear powers have never fought a major war.

Nuclear weapons have drastically reduced the "amount of things we need to go wrong for human extinction"* threshold. I wouldn't call that a good thing.



*"Things" is a very vague measure, I know. Weigh them by probability or whatever, you get the basic idea.

I agree, and this is why I think post-Soviet nuclear clean-up is one of the most important things humanity isn't funding right now. The risk of accidental or crazy-person nuclear death is too high. But I think the risk posed by intentional great power war is now zero.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lithp on May 31, 2013, 04:33:11 am
I usually wonder what would happen if either the Cold War or WWII went in favor of the opposite party.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: R. U. Sirius on May 31, 2013, 04:41:54 am
Let's go farther back: What if the Renaissance-era rediscovery of America hadn't happened? Would the Aztec Empire have evolved to a power great enough to stand up to the Europeans if and when contact occurred? (Yes, I know that disease did most of the killing, but work with me here)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sixth Monarchist on May 31, 2013, 06:10:32 am
You know those little news articles about the man in Alabama, or Florida, or someplace, who decides to use a gun as a can opener and sees his plan figuratively and/or literally backfire? Those wouldn't happen.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lithp on May 31, 2013, 10:20:41 am
Let's go farther back: What if the Renaissance-era rediscovery of America hadn't happened? Would the Aztec Empire have evolved to a power great enough to stand up to the Europeans if and when contact occurred? (Yes, I know that disease did most of the killing, but work with me here)

Doesn't really answer my question.

Anyway, I don't think so. A lot of industrialization comes down to finding resources, & much of America was forested, which isn't exactly conducive to mining. If they had some kind of immunity to the European diseases & large enough numbers, maybe, but not because they had better guns, or anything.

On the other hand, if they turned to the sea, they might have been able to find something somewhere.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 31, 2013, 12:59:40 pm
A rather interesting if commonly brought up scenario would be what if the US had opted to invade rather than nuke Japan in WWII. No doubt Japan would eventually fall, but they would certainly take huge numbers of allied soldiers with them, and end up with a quite a bit more bargaining power when it comes time to surrender. It's almost certain that there'd be no US military bases in Japan. Possibly no cap on their military and constitutional bans on fighting anything other than a defensive war would be imposed either. Then the US not keeping them on a tight leash could open the door for a lot of interesting shenanigans. Even going over to the communist side of the cold war is not inconceivable.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Meshakhad on May 31, 2013, 01:17:13 pm
Jared Diamond made the case that one of the big advantages the Old World had was the number of animals that can be domesticated. There are very few in the New World. However, there were a lot of candidates that died out at the end of the Ice Age, thanks to the Younger Dryas event.

So what if that hadn't happened? What if the New World's megafauna had survived? I think there would have been a chance of the New World developing at least to the point that they could hold off the Europeans. If the Europeans had encountered a civilization with at least Roman tech levels, it probably would have survived.

A rather interesting if commonly brought up scenario would be what if the US had opted to invade rather than nuke Japan in WWII. No doubt Japan would eventually fall, but they would certainly take huge numbers of allied soldiers with them, and end up with a quite a bit more bargaining power when it comes time to surrender. It's almost certain that there'd be no US military bases in Japan. Possibly no cap on their military and constitutional bans on fighting anything other than a defensive war would be imposed either. Then the US not keeping them on a tight leash could open the door for a lot of interesting shenanigans. Even going over to the communist side of the cold is not inconceivable.

A related scenario that I've explored is the possibility of a Soviet invasion of Hokkaido. The obvious consequence is that after the war, there would be American-dominated Japan and Soviet-dominated Hokkaido. However, it's plausible that the Soviets might try to exploit the cultural differences between the Japanese and the Ainu. If they did, they might permanently sever Hokkaido from Japan, even if Hokkaido later abandoned communism.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lithp on June 01, 2013, 02:02:57 am
Cracked says that the actual invasion plan was to drop nukes AND THEN send in soldiers. If so, Japan would have been fucked, but there would be a rise in birth defects around the world from soldiers returning home. It'd be pretty bad.

I'm not sure how that translates to a difference in the treaty terms, though.

I can think of several animals that could be domesticated in the new world, though anyone would be a force to be reckoned with if they had mammoths.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 01, 2013, 02:14:24 am
Cracked says that the actual invasion plan was to drop nukes AND THEN send in soldiers. If so, Japan would have been fucked, but there would be a rise in birth defects around the world from soldiers returning home. It'd be pretty bad.

I'm not sure how that translates to a difference in the treaty terms, though.
The idea in this particular scenario is no nukes in any capacity, just an invasion. Going with nukes and then an invasion would just be redundant, since the nukes on their own are proven to get the job done.

As for surrender, the idea is that a straight up invasion would be so costly to the allies that Japan could get away with a conditional surrender if they did so before the Japan had properly fallen, since ending the war early would be a veritable godsend for the allies.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Canadian Mojo on June 01, 2013, 09:08:42 am
The other thing to consider with a conventional invasion of Japan is what happens if the Soviets really got involved and managed to seize control of a decent portion of the main island.

The cold war face to face on another front, Korean war logistics potentially very ugly if the Soviets decide to make it hard, an economic juggernaut never coming into existence (or if a divided Japan followed the same sort of history as Germany, the fall out of eventual reunification).
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 01, 2013, 09:14:32 am
The other thing to consider with a conventional invasion of Japan is what happens if the Soviets really got involved and managed to seize control of a decent portion of the main island.
The Soviets had a pretty pitiful navy, especially in the Pacific. It's highly unlikely they could ever land and adequately supply anything capable of taking even one major city. Hell, simply retaking the half of Sakhalin Island they lost back in the Russo-Japanese War would be an achievement.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Meshakhad on June 01, 2013, 12:00:59 pm
The other thing to consider with a conventional invasion of Japan is what happens if the Soviets really got involved and managed to seize control of a decent portion of the main island.

The cold war face to face on another front, Korean war logistics potentially very ugly if the Soviets decide to make it hard, an economic juggernaut never coming into existence (or if a divided Japan followed the same sort of history as Germany, the fall out of eventual reunification).

I mentioned this in my post. My own prediction is that the Soviets might be able to play up the ethnic differences between the Ainu and the Japanese, possibly resulting in Hokkaido (which would probably be the Soviet zone of Japan) permanently breaking away.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 01, 2013, 08:34:55 pm
The US plan that probably would have been adopted had it needed to be would have seen the US successively nuke every other Japanese city, starting with Tokyo. The allegedly required land invasion of Japan was never even a credible possibility.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Canadian Mojo on June 01, 2013, 11:21:00 pm
The US plan that probably would have been adopted had it needed to be would have seen the US successively nuke every other Japanese city, starting with Tokyo. The allegedly required land invasion of Japan was never even a credible possibility.
But what if rather then saying "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" Oppenheimer had said "oops, I wonder what went wrong" and we didn't get nuclear weapons due to a technical glitch of some sort that would take several months at a minimum to diagnose and begin to address?

The bean counters might have won the day and made the case that it would be cheaper to isolate Japan and firebomb everything until they agreed to play nice or the strategists and theorists might have won the day and convinced everyone that this war needed to be ended now and it needed to be ended definitively and that was only going to happen with American boots marching through the ruins of Tokyo and raising the Stars and Stripes over the capital.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 01, 2013, 11:38:30 pm
I don't want to get into another interminable should they or shouldn't they debate about this. But I do like that the "Bean Counters" here include Eisenhower, McArthur and Nimitz. Wusses, all of them.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Canadian Mojo on June 02, 2013, 01:16:31 am
I don't want to get into another interminable should they or shouldn't they debate about this. But I do like that the "Bean Counters" here include Eisenhower, McArthur and Nimitz. Wusses, all of them.
What, you don't want to go down this old path again?  ;)

I think you might be reading too much into the term bean counter if you think I was suggesting that any of them are wusses. It is simply a way of looking at how to conduct a war and its cut and dried statistical analysis is in rather direct contrast to classical warrior philosophy. Both have their merits and their flaws and both were definitely in play during the second world war. A slightly different bias one way or another by even just a couple key players could have had major repercussions.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 02, 2013, 01:41:18 am
I don't want to get into another interminable should they or shouldn't they debate about this. But I do like that the "Bean Counters" here include Eisenhower, McArthur and Nimitz. Wusses, all of them.
What, you don't want to go down this old path again?  ;)

I think you might be reading too much into the term bean counter if you think I was suggesting that any of them are wusses. It is simply a way of looking at how to conduct a war and its cut and dried statistical analysis is in rather direct contrast to classical warrior philosophy. Both have their merits and their flaws and both were definitely in play during the second world war. A slightly different bias one way or another by even just a couple key players could have had major repercussions.

Fair enough. If there was no negative connotation intended, I just misinterpreted what you said. Mah bahd.



I reckon someone should write an oral history account of the 1950 war between the Soviets and the US, in a world where nuclear weapons couldn't be developed for some reason.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: wrightway on June 25, 2013, 03:02:47 pm
I sometimes wonder what would happen if McCarthy hadn't been a first class idiot.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sixth Monarchist on June 25, 2013, 06:02:40 pm
I sometimes wonder what would happen if McCarthy hadn't been a first class idiot.

Progress?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: wrightway on June 25, 2013, 06:29:45 pm
I sometimes wonder what would happen if McCarthy hadn't been a first class idiot.

Progress?

I was bored earlier and wondering what I would do if I had a time machine. My list included sending Adolf to art school and telling McCarthy his name is a synonym for asshole in the future.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 25, 2013, 07:25:06 pm
What if Japan hadn't adopted Article Nine, which the Americans want them to repeal?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Canadian Mojo on June 25, 2013, 10:01:21 pm
What if Japan hadn't adopted Article Nine, which the Americans want them to repeal?
We'd have some really cool battle mechs by now.  ;D

I don't know that it would have changed much as I don't see Japan as being terribly likely to have gotten embroiled in any wars. The increased spending and altered industrial focus might have proved to be a bit of a detriment to their economy while benefiting the American one a bit but I can't see that as having a huge impact on how the last few decades have played out.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Errata on June 25, 2013, 11:27:51 pm
I don't know if this really counts as alternate history but what if the continents of Mu and Lemuria were real?

I don't mean in terms of ancient astronauts and magic. I mean what if these two large landmasses had really existed through the duration of human history? How would they change cultural contact and exchange? The development of societies? Ocean currents, wildlife, weather? You can't just drop a landmass in the middle of the Indian and Pacific Oceans without it causing an effect.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 25, 2013, 11:44:34 pm
What would it be like if science was viewed from the same mystical viewpoint that alchemy was once viewed through?

Or rather, when ancient scientists ended up continuing into modern science, it brought the same "This is like magic" viewpoint that the sciences of the times had?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on June 25, 2013, 11:49:14 pm
What would it be like if science was viewed from the same mystical viewpoint that alchemy was once viewed through?

Or rather, when ancient scientists ended up continuing into modern science, it brought the same "This is like magic" viewpoint that the sciences of the times had?

I kind of think that's what happened with a lot of alchemists. They didn't have the exact scientific method or understanding down, but they did mix stuff together to see what happened, which is sorta science.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Søren on June 25, 2013, 11:50:44 pm
What would it be like if science was viewed from the same mystical viewpoint that alchemy was once viewed through?

Or rather, when ancient scientists ended up continuing into modern science, it brought the same "This is like magic" viewpoint that the sciences of the times had?

I expect there would be heavily religious scientific institutions, all with differing opinions on what mystical thing causes chemical reactions
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Zygarde on June 25, 2013, 11:53:46 pm
What would it be like if science was viewed from the same mystical viewpoint that alchemy was once viewed through?

Or rather, when ancient scientists ended up continuing into modern science, it brought the same "This is like magic" viewpoint that the sciences of the times had?


I expect there would be heavily religious scientific institutions, all with differing opinions on what mystical thing causes chemical reactions

Sounds like the Cult Mechanicus  in Warhammer 40k
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 26, 2013, 12:41:09 am
Is it bad that, as superstitious as it would be, it sounds like it'd be awesome?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on June 26, 2013, 01:05:08 am
Hmmm...

On one hand you'd think that someone will figure out if chanting or chalk circles are required to make an chemical reaction work, but on the other hand it wouldn't necessarily work against it either.

I mean if the tradition started centuries ago, like chanting the names of the elements you are mixing, it is unnecessary but does not aversely affect the experiment. Or memorizing formulas and stuff with mystical chanting.

Now that I think about it. Having stuff like drawing a chalk circle around your chemistry set and candles and whatnot required for scientific experiments would probably be discovered as unnecessary purely because SOMEONE SOMEWHERE would test if those are necessary. If the society is fanatically religious/mystic then people trying to claim that the magic is unnecessary could be forced to keep their mouths shut or be punished as heretics and perpetuate the system a while longer but in a society like most modern coutries people would just realise that science does not need magic.

On the other hand if it is merely some mild stuff and mysticism involved, revering great wizards/scientists believing that the forces that make the world work are magical (but that they obey laws and can be studied and used) then I could see the magic/science system surviving.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Errata on June 26, 2013, 12:14:39 pm
What would it be like if science was viewed from the same mystical viewpoint that alchemy was once viewed through?

Or rather, when ancient scientists ended up continuing into modern science, it brought the same "This is like magic" viewpoint that the sciences of the times had?

A similar though less realistic concept, what would science look like in a world in which magic were real? If magic (of any variety) really worked and supplanted chemistry and biology as the central means of understanding and developing tools to interact with the world, then how would the societies of that world, say, build a space ship? A satellite? What would be their equivalent of the ISS, the Mars ranger, SETI, or more earth bound tools like deep sea exploration, deep earth drilling, ice core sampling, etc?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 26, 2013, 06:37:28 pm
What would it be like if science was viewed from the same mystical viewpoint that alchemy was once viewed through?

Or rather, when ancient scientists ended up continuing into modern science, it brought the same "This is like magic" viewpoint that the sciences of the times had?

A similar though less realistic concept, what would science look like in a world in which magic were real? If magic (of any variety) really worked and supplanted chemistry and biology as the central means of understanding and developing tools to interact with the world, then how would the societies of that world, say, build a space ship? A satellite? What would be their equivalent of the ISS, the Mars ranger, SETI, or more earth bound tools like deep sea exploration, deep earth drilling, ice core sampling, etc?

Well, magic is often depicted as having at least rough rules (albeit highly flexible ones). Science would probably involve something on the level of the more advanced magic study in Harry Potter: extremely complex studies on the exact laws behind magic, including the various exceptions and how intent and desire affect them, and attempts to create a solid basis for performing magic that is easy to replicate.

The Harry Potter wiki actually provides some information regarding transfiguration, which apparently comes from something made for the first movie:

Quote
There are a number of factors a wizard must take into account when carrying out Transfiguration spells. The intended transformation (t) is directly influenced by bodyweight (a), viciousness (v), wand power (w), concentration (c) and a fifth unknown variable (Z), as described by the following mathematical formula (as taught to first-years at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry):
(http://images.wikia.com/harrypotter/images/math/4/f/e/4feeb76dcc9d4cad32d7818e9cce4237.png)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 26, 2013, 06:57:12 pm
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 26, 2013, 07:10:43 pm
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.

Indeed, the proper scientific response to the discovery of apparently supernatural property is to incorporate it into your studies. The discovery of magic will merely result in scientists studying magic, and potentially providing general humanity with magical products, power sources, and solutions that could be mass produced.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sigmaleph on June 26, 2013, 07:16:58 pm
Quote
There are a number of factors a wizard must take into account when carrying out Transfiguration spells. The intended transformation (t) is directly influenced by bodyweight (a), viciousness (v), wand power (w), concentration (c) and a fifth unknown variable (Z), as described by the following mathematical formula (as taught to first-years at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry):
(http://images.wikia.com/harrypotter/images/math/4/f/e/4feeb76dcc9d4cad32d7818e9cce4237.png)
If you'll excuse me, now I will complain about people trying to sound sciencey:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 26, 2013, 08:33:46 pm
The Z isn't unknown in the magical world. It's just something that they didn't tell the fans. It's like putting the pi symbol on a board in front of people who don't know what it stands for: it has a defined meaning, but it just hasn't been told yet.

Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sigmaleph on June 26, 2013, 09:43:57 pm
Ah, that makes slightly more sense. Although now I wonder where they got the meanings for everything else, the source is cited as simply the Philosopher's stone film (I have no intention of watching it again). Googling only results in hits for fanfics, some of which make up meanings for Z.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 26, 2013, 09:51:32 pm
Ah, that makes slightly more sense. Although now I wonder where they got the meanings for everything else, the source is cited as simply the Philosopher's stone film (I have no intention of watching it again). Googling only results in hits for fanfics, some of which make up meanings for Z.

I believe it would have been on the set dressing for the Transfiguration classroom.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Errata on June 27, 2013, 11:07:47 am
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.


But, I suppose, if magic did exist then it wouldn't be magic at all. It would in fact be science. If magic existed, science would supplant magic to become an additional field of science.

So I guess that changes my original question from "how would witches build a space ship" to "what world view/level of discovery would lead scientists who can do alchemy to feel the need to explore space?"
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 27, 2013, 03:25:21 pm
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.
But, I suppose, if magic did exist then it wouldn't be magic at all. It would in fact be science. If magic existed, science would supplant magic to become an additional field of science.

Bingo!
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sixth Monarchist on June 27, 2013, 04:19:54 pm
All this reminds me of Dr. Strange in "Stark Disassembled", where he draws a big mystic circle with a fuckload of symbols and candles, puts an unconcious Stark in the middle of it, explains the procedure, then when asked "you sure about that?", just says "trust me. I'm a doctor" in front of the least medical-looking backdrop possible.

...

Well, I guess it's funnier in context.

Also reminds of the old "alternative medicine that works is called medicine" saying.
_______________________________

OK, erm... what if... the... Founding Fathers... were... Jewish? (!?!?!) Or Muslim? (????) Or Hindu? (#~!£$~)

Now I'm just coming up with any old bullshit...
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 27, 2013, 04:39:17 pm
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.


But, I suppose, if magic did exist then it wouldn't be magic at all. It would in fact be science. If magic existed, science would supplant magic to become an additional field of science.

So I guess that changes my original question from "how would witches build a space ship" to "what world view/level of discovery would lead scientists who can do alchemy to feel the need to explore space?"

Why do scientists today feel the need to explore space?

Because it's there.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Errata on June 27, 2013, 06:07:24 pm
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.


But, I suppose, if magic did exist then it wouldn't be magic at all. It would in fact be science. If magic existed, science would supplant magic to become an additional field of science.

So I guess that changes my original question from "how would witches build a space ship" to "what world view/level of discovery would lead scientists who can do alchemy to feel the need to explore space?"

Why do scientists today feel the need to explore space?

Because it's there.


And because the United States and the Soviet Union funneled resources into beating each other to orbit, to the moon, and to a prominent presence above the atmosphere in a desire to both hold the potential to do damage and keep taps on their enemy while at the same time negating their enemies ability to do the same to them.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on June 27, 2013, 10:27:04 pm
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.
But, I suppose, if magic did exist then it wouldn't be magic at all. It would in fact be science. If magic existed, science would supplant magic to become an additional field of science.

Bingo!
I am going to disagree with this.

"Magic" could only be considered science if it obeyed clear rules and was otherwise consistent. I suppose that might be possible, but usually magic is represented to be more unpredictable and the laws being more like guidelines.

Chemical reactions work no matter who does the mixin, a match is just as likely to light up no matter what time of the month it is and who uses it. (assuming that they know how to light a match.)

Instead what if a certain spell only works when there is full moon and a virgin voices the magic words? What if magic only works for few select people who are born with magical abilities? If magic is basically using your own willpower and mystical forces to break the laws of physics, to create power out of nothing then how would that be considered science? (Breaking the laws of thermodynamics is serious business!)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: dpareja on June 27, 2013, 10:55:23 pm
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.
But, I suppose, if magic did exist then it wouldn't be magic at all. It would in fact be science. If magic existed, science would supplant magic to become an additional field of science.

Bingo!
I am going to disagree with this.

"Magic" could only be considered science if it obeyed clear rules and was otherwise consistent. I suppose that might be possible, but usually magic is represented to be more unpredictable and the laws being more like guidelines.

Chemical reactions work no matter who does the mixin, a match is just as likely to light up no matter what time of the month it is and who uses it. (assuming that they know how to light a match.)

Instead what if a certain spell only works when there is full moon and a virgin voices the magic words? What if magic only works for few select people who are born with magical abilities? If magic is basically using your own willpower and mystical forces to break the laws of physics, to create power out of nothing then how would that be considered science? (Breaking the laws of thermodynamics is serious business!)

But that would still obey various rules, even if those rules involve full moons and virgins. And that would be worthy of study.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 27, 2013, 11:14:30 pm
So much for Harry Potter students not learning basic math skills.

That being said, if magic existed (in the capacity that is generally seen in fantasy and such) I don't think it would supplant science.  Rather, it would complement it.
But, I suppose, if magic did exist then it wouldn't be magic at all. It would in fact be science. If magic existed, science would supplant magic to become an additional field of science.

Bingo!
I am going to disagree with this.

"Magic" could only be considered science if it obeyed clear rules and was otherwise consistent. I suppose that might be possible, but usually magic is represented to be more unpredictable and the laws being more like guidelines.

Chemical reactions work no matter who does the mixin, a match is just as likely to light up no matter what time of the month it is and who uses it. (assuming that they know how to light a match.)

Instead what if a certain spell only works when there is full moon and a virgin voices the magic words? What if magic only works for few select people who are born with magical abilities? If magic is basically using your own willpower and mystical forces to break the laws of physics, to create power out of nothing then how would that be considered science? (Breaking the laws of thermodynamics is serious business!)

But that would still obey various rules, even if those rules involve full moons and virgins. And that would be worthy of study.

Correct. Any rules can be studied and determined through the scientific method. If only a select few people were capable of performing magic, then procedures would likely include determining just WHY these people can perform magic.

On the same subject, I was on the Headscratchers page on TV Tropes for Harry Potter, and it's quite common for people to argue that wizards shouldn't need to worry about secrecy and need to come out to the public for the greater good, trying to save the world through their woo woo.

Think about it from a realistic perspective. We already have racism and genocide based on nothing more than what are essentially nasty rumors about certain ethnic groups, despite said groups being identical to their oppressors. What do you think is going to happen if a particular minority group actually has legit magic powers? A preteen magic user has powers that could cause serious harm or death to anyone they desire with nothing more than a slight push of will and wave of a wand; an 11-year-old STARTS by learning how to levitate objects that weight hundreds of pounds (troll clubs, for instance). A teenage wizard developed a spell that acts almost like an invisible sword blade slashing the target. How do you think people are going to act when they realize that their neighbor could turn their house to kindling with a stray thought if angered? Not to mention that as we've seen from Hogwarts students, said teenagers frivolously use such horrific powers as instantly paralyzing people or causing bats to fly out of their nose for schoolyard scuffles.

Then there's the efforts to figure out what makes wizards tick. It would take probably a few seconds from the global revelation of magic for someone to get the idea to torture and dissect a spare wizard to see what gives him his magic powers. Within a year or less, you'd have a news story of a psychotic serial killer who eats wizard organs or injects himself with their blood to try and gain their powers for himself.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: poeticmind0189 on June 30, 2013, 01:06:38 am
Don't know if these came up yet on this thread. number 1: If George Washington chose to be king and keep the same monarchy style they had over in Europe. 2. If Benjamin Franklin got his wish and the Turkey was chosen as the national bird (what would we have to eat on Thankgiving). 3. If JFK survived the assination attempt. 4. If Russia still had Czars.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 30, 2013, 01:18:41 am
Don't know if these came up yet on this thread. number 1: If George Washington chose to be king and keep the same monarchy style they had over in Europe.

Very little change, frankly. A somewhat more entrenched aristocracy in the South, and probably a less democratic North. That would mean no Civil War, of course.

Quote
2. If Benjamin Franklin got his wish and the Turkey was chosen as the national bird (what would we have to eat on Thankgiving).

Eh.

Quote
3. If JFK survived the assination attempt.

Nothing, really. JFK would have continued to muddle through, slightly more popularly until meeting his two-term limit. Then his successor (probably his brother) would have lost to probably Rockefeller. Certainly no Civil Rights Act, Medicare, Voting Rights Act, ect. Vietnam still would have happened, maybe better maybe worse.

Quote
4. If Russia still had Czars.

Would have gotten whooped by Germany.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on June 30, 2013, 01:44:14 am
Don't know if these came up yet on this thread. number 1: If George Washington chose to be king and keep the same monarchy style they had over in Europe.

Very little change, frankly. A somewhat more entrenched aristocracy in the South, and probably a less democratic North. That would mean no Civil War, of course.

Why wouldn't there have been a civil war?

As far as I know the main reasons for the civil war were:

a) South had an economy which relied on slavery
b) Abolishing slavery would be sure to cause great economic upheaval for the south.

Unless those things would have changed due to monarchy they would have still had a reason to revolt. And don't tell me that they would not have dared to do so in a monarchy, the same people had already rebelled against one king few generations ago.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: wrightway on June 30, 2013, 01:46:38 am
I think a monarchy would be kinder to slavery.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on June 30, 2013, 02:21:28 am
Britain abolished slavery before USA did so not all monarchies are morally corrupt by nature or favourable to enslaving people..

I suppose I don't know what kind of monarchy would come from king Washington though, so it is possible that USA(or the kingdom in place of USA at least) would have had slavery longer.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Veras on June 30, 2013, 02:22:39 am
It's also worth noting that Washington didn't have any children, so a genetic monarchy would have dead-ended very quickly.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on June 30, 2013, 02:34:24 am
It's also worth noting that Washington didn't have any children, so a genetic monarchy would have dead-ended very quickly.
No children in THIS timeline. :)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 30, 2013, 02:51:45 am
Don't know if these came up yet on this thread. number 1: If George Washington chose to be king and keep the same monarchy style they had over in Europe.

Very little change, frankly. A somewhat more entrenched aristocracy in the South, and probably a less democratic North. That would mean no Civil War, of course.

Why wouldn't there have been a civil war? 

There are two sides to every civil war. The war was fought over slavery- specifically, the political tensions over slavery caused by half the country asking to be allowed to ban it, while the other half wanted to force them to keep it. Hence, civil war. I presume that a monarchy North would have been unlikely to ban slavery (they might have de-emphasised it, but probably not a ban; I'm thinking a Maryland situation). The separation of those two areas into geographically distinct areas is based entirely on their stance on slavery*. Without the absence of slavery in the North, there is no Mason-Dixie Line, there is no "North" there is no "Dixie" there are no "Yankees". Without any concept of distinction, let alone any grievance, the war would not have happened.

Quote
Unless those things would have changed due to monarchy they would have still had a reason to revolt. And don't tell me that they would not have dared to do so in a monarchy, the same people had already rebelled against one king few generations ago.

We should be clear who rebelled against who and why. The Northern aristocracy and Southern plantation slave-owners rebelled against foreign domination. They wanted domestic domination- by themselves. A domestic 'monarchy' would have been a slightly more solid form of that domination than the semi-democratic Congressional system, distinguished only by even less participation by the many. Why would aristocrats rebel against that?

* Which is why it's always disgusting when conservatives demand we believe that only Southerners are true Americans. The South as a separate concept only exists because of their historic (?) stance on race.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on June 30, 2013, 03:20:26 am
You already admit that the cause of US civil war was slavery. Any plan to abolish slavery would have faced the same resistance from south as long as their economy needed slaves to function.

You have not given any reason why a monarchy would have meant that slavery would have been upheld. In fact, depending on what type of monarchy the country would have become the southern people could have had even less chances of affecting politics and stopping the abolition by legal ways. If the king had simply ordered that all slaves are released then the only way to keep slavery would have been to rebel, just like it happened in this timeline.

I know this is all hypotethical but can you give ANY reason why kindgdom of North America would have been more likely to keep slavery legalized?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 30, 2013, 05:16:02 am
I know this is all hypotethical but can you give ANY reason why kindgdom of North America would have been more likely to keep slavery legalized?

I presume that civil society would have been either less powerful or non-existent, due to the nature of monarchy/absolute rule. The abolitionists were largely responsible for the North's policy aim of banning of slavery within the North as opposed to reducing it in line with economic imperatives (the Maryland option), of course.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Arctic Knight on June 30, 2013, 07:13:45 am
Years ago I read some books with alternate history.  Basically, the South won the civil war, succeeded in creating their own country (Confederate States of America) and what is no the U.S. becomes two countries.  Jump ahead to WWII.  The CSA sides with Germany, opening a foothold for Nazi troops on North America and bringing the war right to our front door.  I wish I could remember the names of that series of books.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 30, 2013, 07:19:54 am
Harry Turtledove's Great War trilogy et al?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on June 30, 2013, 07:40:21 am
I presume that civil society would have been either less powerful or non-existent, due to the nature of monarchy/absolute rule./

a) It depends on what type of monarchy it would have been. For example, Sweden used to elect their kings. So rather than heridetary line, it was kind of "president for life." And in many kingdoms the people have representatives and even if the monarch has the final word they don't rule in vacuum, they are influenced by other people. (Lobbying still works, you just have less people you need to influence.)

b) What if the king would have wanted to end slavery because it is inhuman and makes the country look bad in the eyes of the world or something?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 30, 2013, 08:29:06 am
Yeah, eventually that'd probably happen, probably with the pressure of technology as an added help. Wouldn't need a war, though.

Sweden is a bit weird when it comes to their monarchy. I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: erictheblue on June 30, 2013, 10:44:56 am
I presume that civil society would have been either less powerful or non-existent, due to the nature of monarchy/absolute rule.

You technically live in a monarchy, since QEII is your head of state. Does that mean the people of Australia have no say over how your country is governed?

Technically, English monarchs lost "absolute rule" in 1100 with the Charter of Liberties, and that was reinforced in 1215 with the Magna Carta. Why do you think that a group of former British colonies rebelling against a monarchy would give a local monarch more power than the monarch they rebelled again had - or that monarch's predecessors had had in about 600 years?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: dpareja on June 30, 2013, 12:49:16 pm
Britain abolished slavery before USA did so not all monarchies are morally corrupt by nature or favourable to enslaving people..

Well, by that point Britain was a constitutional monarchy, though it had only been two years since the King (William IV) appointed a Prime Minister who lacked the confidence of the House of Commons. (That was the last time any monarch tried that; it had been much longer--Queen Anne--since a monarch had vetoed a bill.)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 30, 2013, 03:14:00 pm
Don't know if these came up yet on this thread. number 1: If George Washington chose to be king and keep the same monarchy style they had over in Europe.

Very little change, frankly. A somewhat more entrenched aristocracy in the South, and probably a less democratic North. That would mean no Civil War, of course.

Why wouldn't there have been a civil war?

As far as I know the main reasons for the civil war were:

a) South had an economy which relied on slavery
b) Abolishing slavery would be sure to cause great economic upheaval for the south.

Unless those things would have changed due to monarchy they would have still had a reason to revolt. And don't tell me that they would not have dared to do so in a monarchy, the same people had already rebelled against one king few generations ago.

This is correct. The South was essentially built on slavery, as it was primarily an agricultural region and the slaves usually worked on large plantations. However, the South also turned it into an argument over states' rights. As my own American History teacher said, the idea that the Civil War was all about states' rights isn't true. But they DID try to argue for the rights of the states to decide on their own whether to allow slavery. There was a long string of compromises, such as banning slavery in new states as long as they were above such and such a fictional boundary, but it all eventually led to conflict.

The very same economy the South relied on was also what helped them lose the war that they started: they lacked industry and many of their plantations were based around cash crops like cotton. The closest thing they had to a service rifle was imported from Enfield in the UK; it was pretty much identical to the Springfield rifled musket used by the North (to the point where they used the same ammunition), but you can't sustain a war as easily if you need to import all of your guns across the Atlantic in the 19th century than simply make more at home. That was the same story all across the South: trying to compensate for a lack of industry against an industrial nation.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: MadmanJohnson on June 30, 2013, 03:50:41 pm
What if the Nazis had managed to build their Sun Gun and other Wunderwaffe weapons?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 30, 2013, 05:43:54 pm
What if the Nazis had managed to build their Sun Gun and other Wunderwaffe weapons?

They still would have lost, and spent more money and resources doing it.

The wonder weapons are a desperation ploy: the Nazis could have never truly taken over the world, not with the United States having so much power. They could have captured the rest of Europe if Britain capitulated (Operation Sealion would have been a mess, so no chance of them miraculously making a shore landing even if they won the Battle of Britain; the UK would have had to have given up instead of fighting), but there's more to conquest than just sending in the military to blow things up and declare ownership. The size of the resistance against the Nazis, including German resistance, should prove that.

As we saw with real history, the United States entering the war meant that the Germans were fighting a losing battle from Day 1 of their entry. It was a rapid push back that ended with Hitler shooting himself and trying to take the rest of the nation with him. The prototypes were a lot of overly expensive bullshit that would have been terribly inefficient if they got them to work in the first place:

* The various super tanks like the Ratte and Maus were brilliant targets for aircraft and could barely even traverse the battlefield without breaking windows and roads and trying to ford rivers because no bridge could handle them.

* The V3 cannon actually got to fire on Luxembourg, but 142 shells only meant 10 dead and 35 wounded. Not exactly a brilliant piece of artillery. The lack of ammo and poor state of the German railways meant that they couldn't even get most of the weapons they wanted in place if they had them.

* The Sun Gun would have taken 50 to 100 years to build. It would have taken so long to produce that any enemies of Germany would likely have their own methods of destroying such large orbital installations without even leaving the ground (like ICBMs).
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 30, 2013, 05:56:28 pm
I presume that civil society would have been either less powerful or non-existent, due to the nature of monarchy/absolute rule.

You technically live in a monarchy, since QEII is your head of state. Does that mean the people of Australia have no say over how your country is governed?

Technically, English monarchs lost "absolute rule" in 1100 with the Charter of Liberties, and that was reinforced in 1215 with the Magna Carta. Why do you think that a group of former British colonies rebelling against a monarchy would give a local monarch more power than the monarch they rebelled again had - or that monarch's predecessors had had in about 600 years?

This is precisely what they did. The Constitutional system granted their central government far more power than the English King had. Even the Articles of Confederacy were probably more burdensome in terms of taxation that English rule.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: wrightway on June 30, 2013, 06:09:17 pm
Without world war 2, how long would it have taken the United States to recover from the stock market crash?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: MadmanJohnson on June 30, 2013, 06:23:53 pm
What if Tesla's inventions weren't lost?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: R. U. Sirius on June 30, 2013, 06:54:12 pm
What if Tesla's inventions weren't lost?

What if Tesla had gotten the credit for things Edison ripped off from him?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 30, 2013, 07:17:43 pm
What if Tesla's inventions weren't lost?

What if Tesla had gotten the credit for things Edison ripped off from him?

Greenfield Village in Michigan probably wouldn't have built a replica of the Menlo Park lab.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Feral Dog on June 30, 2013, 07:45:37 pm
What if horses had never been domesticated?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 30, 2013, 07:47:02 pm
What if horses had never been domesticated?

We'd ride donkeys.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Feral Dog on June 30, 2013, 08:01:48 pm
What if horses had never been domesticated?

We'd ride donkeys.

Battle Donkeys: The ultimate jackasses.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on June 30, 2013, 08:58:28 pm
Without world war 2, how long would it have taken the United States to recover from the stock market crash?

Tricky question. How could the government create an excuse to do good? People seem to have an endless capacity to accept the government doing wrong, but as soon as someone proposes to improve things, everyone goes nuts- unless you can use blowing people up as an excuse.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on July 01, 2013, 01:00:40 am
What if horses had never been domesticated?

We'd ride donkeys.

Or we'd have oxen or something pulling carts.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: lord gibbon on July 01, 2013, 02:33:36 am
War oxen, what a wonderful idea.

"Onward, my trust steed! To battle!" "Moo"
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on July 01, 2013, 02:48:25 am
War oxen, what a wonderful idea.

"Onward, my trust steed! To battle!" "Moo"

Answer this: Which one is scarier, a horse or a bull charging at you? (Hint, while both can kick bite and trample only one can gore you with its horns.)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Canadian Mojo on July 01, 2013, 01:43:22 pm
War oxen, what a wonderful idea.

"Onward, my trust steed! To battle!" "Moo"
Battle moose.
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv17/canadian_mojo/theodore-roosevelt-moose_zps41a13981.jpg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/canadian_mojo/media/theodore-roosevelt-moose_zps41a13981.jpg.html)
Particularly useful for amphibious assaults.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on July 02, 2013, 12:58:13 am
War oxen, what a wonderful idea.

"Onward, my trust steed! To battle!" "Moo"
Battle moose.
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv17/canadian_mojo/theodore-roosevelt-moose_zps41a13981.jpg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/canadian_mojo/media/theodore-roosevelt-moose_zps41a13981.jpg.html)
Particularly useful for amphibious assaults.

I see your moose and raise you with battle-reindeer-sleds.

(http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/lappi/article6419580.ece/ALTERNATES/w580/Joulutonttu+joulu+joulupukki+poro+Napapiiri+Rovaniemi)

"Yo ho ho, now I have a machinegun."
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: PosthumanHeresy on July 02, 2013, 03:29:44 am
What if the terrorists had waited later in 9/11, and had successfully hit the White House? 9/11/2001 was the day of the annual Congressional Picnic, which would have had all of Congress, the Senate, Bush, Cheney, and even the Washington D.C. government. With Bush/Cheney wiped out, and all the congressmen and senators dead, what would have happened (outside of the infinite-term people no longer being in office)?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: R. U. Sirius on July 02, 2013, 03:35:53 am
Most likely, in my opinion? Martial law, leading directly into a military dictatorship. With the entirety of the federal government wiped out and widespread panic across the country, that would be the only viable way to maintain order. It's anyone's guess whether Constitutional ideals would have been strong enough to ensure a serious rebuilding of the government and peaceful transition of power from the military back to a civilian government.

Personally, I doubt it.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Canadian Mojo on July 02, 2013, 03:54:39 am
War oxen, what a wonderful idea.

"Onward, my trust steed! To battle!" "Moo"
Battle moose.
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv17/canadian_mojo/theodore-roosevelt-moose_zps41a13981.jpg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/canadian_mojo/media/theodore-roosevelt-moose_zps41a13981.jpg.html)
Particularly useful for amphibious assaults.

I see your moose and raise you with battle-reindeer-sleds.

(http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/lappi/article6419580.ece/ALTERNATES/w580/Joulutonttu+joulu+joulupukki+poro+Napapiiri+Rovaniemi)

"Yo ho ho, now I have a machinegun."
(http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv17/canadian_mojo/bear-cavalry_zps52c4347e.jpg) (http://s665.photobucket.com/user/canadian_mojo/media/bear-cavalry_zps52c4347e.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: PosthumanHeresy on July 02, 2013, 04:03:43 am
Most likely, in my opinion? Martial law, leading directly into a military dictatorship. With the entirety of the federal government wiped out and widespread panic across the country, that would be the only viable way to maintain order. It's anyone's guess whether Constitutional ideals would have been strong enough to ensure a serious rebuilding of the government and peaceful transition of power from the military back to a civilian government.

Personally, I doubt it.
I had thought of that at first, but remember, the Pentagon also takes a plane. So, the military's just as discombobulated, their main command center is wrecked, and they have no clue what's going on either. Unlike now, they can't talk to Congress, and additionally, chances are, all ability to use are nuclear missiles is lost, due to both the President and the nuclear football being destroyed. While a military dictatorship would happen over time, they just wouldn't have the facilities or power to run it for at least a few weeks, and the rest of the world would likely notice a newly nukeless America.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on July 02, 2013, 04:38:02 am
Most likely, in my opinion? Martial law, leading directly into a military dictatorship. With the entirety of the federal government wiped out and widespread panic across the country, that would be the only viable way to maintain order. It's anyone's guess whether Constitutional ideals would have been strong enough to ensure a serious rebuilding of the government and peaceful transition of power from the military back to a civilian government.

Personally, I doubt it.
I had thought of that at first, but remember, the Pentagon also takes a plane. So, the military's just as discombobulated, their main command center is wrecked, and they have no clue what's going on either. Unlike now, they can't talk to Congress, and additionally, chances are, all ability to use are nuclear missiles is lost, due to both the President and the nuclear football being destroyed. While a military dictatorship would happen over time, they just wouldn't have the facilities or power to run it for at least a few weeks, and the rest of the world would likely notice a newly nukeless America.

In actuality, the other nations would likely fly in with aid and try to help out. We're not exactly convincing everyone, especially the EU and all of the nations that we've sent aid to, to feign kindness just because we have nuclear weapons.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: PosthumanHeresy on July 02, 2013, 04:56:36 am
Most likely, in my opinion? Martial law, leading directly into a military dictatorship. With the entirety of the federal government wiped out and widespread panic across the country, that would be the only viable way to maintain order. It's anyone's guess whether Constitutional ideals would have been strong enough to ensure a serious rebuilding of the government and peaceful transition of power from the military back to a civilian government.

Personally, I doubt it.
I had thought of that at first, but remember, the Pentagon also takes a plane. So, the military's just as discombobulated, their main command center is wrecked, and they have no clue what's going on either. Unlike now, they can't talk to Congress, and additionally, chances are, all ability to use are nuclear missiles is lost, due to both the President and the nuclear football being destroyed. While a military dictatorship would happen over time, they just wouldn't have the facilities or power to run it for at least a few weeks, and the rest of the world would likely notice a newly nukeless America.

In actuality, the other nations would likely fly in with aid and try to help out. We're not exactly convincing everyone, especially the EU and all of the nations that we've sent aid to, to feign kindness just because we have nuclear weapons.
While the EU, due to actually liking us at this point in time, would try to help out, who is to say that various other nations, previously deterred by nuclear threat or typical "March into developing nation, stomp on their faces, leave" threat, would not act on this. I could see Kim Jong-Il deciding to invade South Korea, as suddenly the South Koreans wouldn't have their American ally. Additionally, the middle east would still start to destabilize, as the world and the UN focuses on fixing up America, nations like Iraq and Iran decide to start invading their neighbors. It would be the most opportune time to strike Israel, as well. And, that's not saying anything about what Russia and China would do with the United States no longer a nuclear superpower. Plus, the panic could easily be felt at the stock market, due to not knowing if everything is doomed anyways, so we could be plunged into a depression, governmentless, and have a restored via averages Russia (or in other words, sure they don't look good at that point in time due to America being relatively fine, but make it so the biggest three powers in the world are the EU, Russia and China and suddenly they look a lot different) and China. Meanwhile, the UN would be so focused on preventing America from either going dictatorship or turning into a bigger version of Mad Max with tons more guns that they'd be forced to ignore everything else, especially since a major part of their power comes from America.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on July 02, 2013, 06:48:00 am
I very seriously doubt that the Football is the only way to trigger a nuclear attack.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: PosthumanHeresy on July 02, 2013, 06:51:10 am
I very seriously doubt that the Football is the only way to trigger a nuclear attack.
I agree. But, I don't doubt that the only one that can do it is the President, and even if the VP knows, I doubt the person that would end up President by then would (you've got to figure, pretty far down the line is now dead).
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on July 02, 2013, 07:01:04 am
I very seriously doubt that the Football is the only way to trigger a nuclear attack.

It sorta is. The President is the only authority that can authorize a nuclear strike, and it must be confirmed by the Secretary of Defense. Among the contents of the "nuclear football" is a card with the authorization codes, which are also necessary to physically fire the nukes; with the codes incinerated and the two high authorities required to initiate a launch dead, there's going to be a lot of finagling to get a missile out. The only two spares known to be in existence are one in the White House and one with the VP, both of which would go up in flames this hypothetical attack.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: PosthumanHeresy on July 02, 2013, 07:05:57 am
I very seriously doubt that the Football is the only way to trigger a nuclear attack.

It sorta is. The President is the only authority that can authorize a nuclear strike, and it must be confirmed by the Secretary of Defense. Among the contents of the "nuclear football" is a card with the authorization codes, which are also necessary to physically fire the nukes; with the codes incinerated and the two high authorities required to initiate a launch dead, there's going to be a lot of finagling to get a missile out. The only two spares known to be in existence are one in the White House and one with the VP, both of which would go up in flames this hypothetical attack.
Huh. And, even allowing for backups, it seems likely that they'd be in the now destroyed White House or the now destroyed Pentagon. Either way, they're screwed.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on July 02, 2013, 07:35:22 am
I very seriously doubt that the Football is the only way to trigger a nuclear attack.

It sorta is. The President is the only authority that can authorize a nuclear strike, and it must be confirmed by the Secretary of Defense. Among the contents of the "nuclear football" is a card with the authorization codes, which are also necessary to physically fire the nukes; with the codes incinerated and the two high authorities required to initiate a launch dead, there's going to be a lot of finagling to get a missile out. The only two spares known to be in existence are one in the White House and one with the VP, both of which would go up in flames this hypothetical attack.

I guarantee you there are at least 45 million secret back-up systems, or lines of authority. Anything else violates Mutually-Assured Destruction. There are fixed command centre bunkers all over the country, for instance.

My very favourite system for this is Britain's Letters of Last Resort. They're literally handwritten letters telling SSBN captains what to do in case of the destruction of mainland Britain.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sixth Monarchist on July 02, 2013, 11:11:53 am
My very favourite system for this is Britain's Letters of Last Resort. They're literally handwritten letters telling SSBN captains what to do in case of the destruction of mainland Britain.

The current letters simply read "sell contents to highest bidder".
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: R. U. Sirius on July 02, 2013, 04:51:35 pm
Actually, if 9/11 had played out as it did other than the destruction of the White House, the military still would have been ideally situated to take over. I can't really speak to the aid packages from other countries, but the situation Post proposed only differed from the real thing in the destruction of the White House.  The Pentagon was heavily damaged in the actual attack, but not destroyed, and I don't remember hearing about any of the military's top brass being killed. So, in the absence of other government, it would be logical for the highest-ranking military officers to declare martial law and establish a military dictatorship to preserve order.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: erictheblue on July 02, 2013, 08:42:28 pm
With Bush/Cheney wiped out, and all the congressmen and senators dead, what would have happened (outside of the infinite-term people no longer being in office)?

I used to do this kind of work, when I was working in the Federal government. There are plans in place that dictate (several layers deep) what position steps in to fill a sudden vacancy in any executive branch agency. So even if a Cabinet Secretary is dead, there will be someone who can step up to become the new Secretary. And of course, there is the well-known line of succession to the Presidency - VP, Speaker of the House, President Pro Temp of the Senate, and then through the Cabinet Secretaries, in order of the formation of their agency.

As for Congress being wiped out? States would hold special elections to fill those seats, the way they do now when a seat becomes vacant.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Jack Mann on July 05, 2013, 11:32:26 am
Military has clear chain of command.  For that matter, so does the federal government.  There would be a great deal of confusion for several days, but we'd be able to get back to business surprisingly quickly.  Not everyone on the president's cabinet would have been there.  Even if it devolved to, say, the Secretary of Agriculture, there would be someone in charge.  In the case of the military, we actually have plans just in case we lose a large portion of our top command.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: booley on July 05, 2013, 02:38:11 pm
Has anyone brought up the Roman Empire and Steam engines yet?

Because you know, the Romans invented the first steam operated apparatus (a set of doors that "magically" opened when two braziers were lit aflame).  So it's possible for them to have figured out you could do other things with steam, like move stuff.

Problem is this might have hurt Rome's slave economy so it never took off.

IF Rome had invented steam engines, it might not have saved the Roman empire.  But it sure would have kept it going a lot longer, made the dark ages less dark and expanded the influence of Roman culture.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chad sexington on July 06, 2013, 01:16:28 am
Supposedly some Roman came up with a steam-powered device that would move stone blocks for constructing monuments; the invention was suppressed due to the fear of riots caused by labourers suddenly put out of work.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: lord gibbon on July 06, 2013, 01:43:43 am
Not surprising, considering I think that such riots did occur in Europe when steam power did come into use.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sixth Monarchist on July 06, 2013, 06:05:53 pm
I heard that steam power failed in Roman times because metallurgy wasn't advanced enough - you need to be able to construct airtight spaces, otherwise there's insufficient pressure for the engine to do work with meaningful efficiency.

It's probably fair to say that Roman steam power would lead to Roman trains, steamships and cars. This means faster transport, which in turn leads to a huge military advantage, and the economic gains from faster trade links. From here, the Roman Empire almost certainly expands further than it did in this reality.

That said, I suspect a larger Roman Empire, consisting of more far-flung territories, would also split into more parts (as opposed to just the West and Byzantine). From there it gets really difficult - what Roman-influence Finland or Roman-influenced India looks like in the 21st Century probably takes more research than I am currently prepared to do.*

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: PosthumanHeresy on July 07, 2013, 05:56:42 pm
The JFK assassination happens, but in this alternate history, it's found that the CIA really was behind it. How does America, and the world, change?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on July 07, 2013, 10:19:18 pm
England is part of the continent. How does this change history?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: chitoryu12 on July 08, 2013, 12:47:40 am
England is part of the continent. How does this change history?

Just thinking about World War II, a German invasion actually occurs and possibly succeeds. The biggest obstacle to the Nazis in conquering the UK was the English Channel. Even though the British had to flee minus a ton of equipment at Dunkirk, the inability of the Germans to actually engage in an amphibious landing or beat the British Navy and RAF in a straight up fight in the Channel meant that they had to spend tons of time and resources preparing for Operation Sealion, which included engaging in the Battle of Britain and losing.

Even if they had won, of course, Sealion would have been a failure. They had never done a landing like it required, and lacked the resources and vessels necessary. The British held enough control of the seas that they could have used the Navy to put up a good defense. This link (http://www.ww2f.com/topic/23186-operation-sealion-unternehmen-seel%C3%B6we/) has a lot more information: the poor quality of the barges they planned on using, which would have taken 30 hours each to cross the channel and likely been sunk by the choppy conditions before even reaching shore, the epic failure of a test run (minus many of the real life Sealion conditions, making their failure even more of a comedy of errors), and exact details on the British Navy compared to the German.

Had England been part of the continent, that wouldn't have had to happen. The Germans simply could have continued marching along with the Blitz and may have successfully overrun the British given enough time and resources. The American intervention would have to start with taking back Britain rather than France.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: lord gibbon on July 08, 2013, 01:14:37 am
Hell, you can go back even further that that. A large part of England's invincible reputation (Hardly ever invaded, last conquered by William of Normandy) comes from it being an island. Napoleon, for instance, would have been able to simply march into England, and without the navy to stop him, it's extraordinarily unlikely that England could beat France when it came to the army, Napoleon's specialty.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Lt. Fred on July 08, 2013, 01:19:10 am
Napoleon would have easily invaded as well. Then again, so would Louis the XIV, Cardinal Richelieu, the Spanish... Lots of people would have invaded perfidious Albion if they could only walk on water.

Without the protection of their natural moat, the long-standing and oft-noted amateurism* of the British Army would have never existed, I feel. Instead of being the pre-eminent naval professionals they were post 1650, defence spending would have remained heavily tilted towards the army.  Instead of sending their sons to be Midshipmen, the English Gentry would have enlisted their progeny as artillery officers (a similar profession in that it requires lots of maths). Britain would probably have developed in a similar way to France, with a standing land military force of great size, or perhaps like the Netherlands with their emphasis on fortifications (France is more likely, given the open, relatively sparsely populated England of 1650). The English-French hundred years war would probably never have ended, without any logical geographical barriers between the two (unlike between Germany or Spain and France, for instance).

At many times in its history, England has pursued an isolationist policy (from 1815-1914, for instance; also during the English Civil War, for obvious reasons). This has allowed it to develop its own culture and institutions, independently, without unwanted foreign interference. To take an example, point to a Civil War in Europe with less foreign intervention than the English Civil War or the various English-Scots wars. Stuck in the middle of things, England would never have developed its unusually universal mono-culture, with more emigration from France and the Netherlands drawing in even more German and French influence. Scotland probably would have retained its independence, being able to avoid English domination by playing them off against other nations, like Savoy/Switzerland, ect. The English Civil war probably would not have happened. England probably would have been a combatant in the Thirty Years' War, on the side of the French and Protestants, which would have been interesting. The British Empire would never have happened as it did, without the overwhelming superiority enjoyed by the Royal Navy. France also would have been changed by having enemies on three sides, rather than just two (Germany and Spain), perhaps becoming a second Germany.

* I don't mean this as a slight. Amateur armies are some of the best in history: the US, Russian and British armies of WW2 were amateur. So were Napoleon's legions. An amateur army is a force that does pretty badly at the start of conflicts because it lacks a large standing compliment, or very effective organisation. Often they end up winning anyway. I'd much rather my country's army look like Britain's circa 1928 than Germany's circa 1913. Also, I find there to be something inherently evil about professional murder. The citizen-soldier idea- we don't want to do this, but we must, so let's get it over with for the good of our country and then get home and make cars or work in a fish and chip shop or something- is far more attractive to me than the Ninja-Chic of the modern special forces unit. Not that we shouldn't have them. They are just an ugly institution, to me.


Apologies, Lord Gibbon, you beat me to it.
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Askold on July 08, 2013, 01:25:18 am
The German army was already overtaxed after taking France. The escape in Dunkerque was possible because the German commanders did not dare to push their luck and try to annihilate the escaping armies. Furthermore the British and French troops left most of their equipment in Dunkerque since they were in a hurry and Germans were able to use them to equip their growing armies. This also meant that the British had to completely rearm those troops which had escaped continental Europe.

If we take away the English channel then the panicked retreat over it would not have occurred as such. Without the channel to rely on they would have probably been retreating slower and fighting much harder since they would not have wanted to put England in danger.

I still think that the German advance would have faltered, due to the biggest problem they had with blizkrieg: Running out of fuel. They would have needed time to resupply and rest their troops anyway. Of course this would have meant that the attack on Britain would have been much easier, they could have built airfields closer to Britain as the German army advanced, thus eliminating one of the biggest problems Luftwaffe had in the Battle of Britain.

Actually I think another major difference is that Germany would not have attacked USSR so soon if they would have been forced to deal with Britain immediately after France. In our timeline they could just ignore the islands and try to bleed them off with submarines since the invasion was not going to happen.

Really though, WW2 is small fish compared to everything else that would have changed. How would the Napoleonic wars have gone if France would not have needed a fleet to try to invade Britain? What about all the other wars that the British isles had been part of? This is a major change on a tactical level. And what about during peace? Traveling between Britain and continental europe would have been easier, how would this affect the British population demographics?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Meshakhad on July 08, 2013, 01:56:14 am
I've got a few more:

What if... Catherine of Aragon had given Henry VIII a son, removing the reason for Henry to secede from the Catholic Church?
What if... Queen Mary and King Philip had had a child, and following Mary's death, Philip had claimed England in the name of his child, with the goal of bringing England and Spain under a single crown?
What if... Jan Hus hadn't been burned at the stake, and the Reformation had gotten going on a large scale in the early 1400s?
What if... Joan of Arc hadn't been captured, and had lived to see a French victory in the Hundred Years' War?
Title: Re: Alternate History
Post by: Sixth Monarchist on July 09, 2013, 07:09:31 am
The JFK assassination happens, but in this alternate history, it's found that the CIA really was behind it. How does America, and the world, change?

Wednesday, June 12th, 1974
CIA BEHIND JFK KILLING

REUTERS (NEW YORK): Panic struck around the world today as newly released tapes from the Watergate Hotel investigation exposed the CIA's involvement in the assassination of John F. Kennedy Jr.

The discovery of the CIA's unexpected competence has sent stock markets plunging and the global economy into further unrest. One anonymous business leader said: "it's very worrying. Previously, I had assumed that the CIA's missions were bound to be fuckups, and invested in oil futures accordingly."

"But if a successful mission like this can be pulled off, who knows what they can do?..."

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Friday, October 18th, 2002
NO INVASION OF IRAQ, SAYS PRESIDENT

REUTERS (WASHINGTON DC): President Bush announced today that he would not proceed with any attempts to invade Iraq after intelligence reports suggested that weapons of mass destruction were not present in the country.

"These folks are good at what they do," the President said in a White House briefing, "they're not to be misunderestimated. If they say Saddam has no weapons, we should listen to that and act accordionly."

But Democrats in Congress accused the Administration of flip-flopping on the issue, claiming that the President had lost credibility on the issue. "The President...

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Monday, November 1st, 2004
BIN LADEN 'NOT RE-ELECTION MASCOT' SAYS PRESIDENT

REUTERS (NEW YORK): President Bush insisted today that the US military and intelligence services' failure to capture Osama bin Laden over the last three years did not point to the man's fictional status, and called accusations made by campaign opponents 'shameful'.

"Bin Laden is real, and he is a threat to the United States," the President insisted, "he is not some viral online campaign for my re-election, and I find such accusations shameful."

But a recent poll showed that just 28% of Americans believe Bin Laden to be an actual person, with 44% believing him to be fictional, up from 19% last year, and 32% believing him to be a campaign mascot of the Bush campaign.

The President's re-election bid has struggled against the increasingly inert war in Aghanistan and questions about his domestic policy...

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