FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Osama bin Bambi on March 10, 2012, 03:57:40 am
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLVY5jBnD-E
A quick summary of her points for those who can't/won't watch the whole video:
- There is more to the war than just one Joseph Kony.
- The video is seriously oversimplifying a complex political issue into "good guys vs. bad guys."
- Uganda is actually in a relatively peaceful state right now.
- The video repeats the same tired, racist narrative that only glorious America can save the despairing Africans.
In other news, there's this one kid from my school on Facebook who has a bug up his ass about supporting Kony 2012 and won't tolerate anyone who suggests that it's wrong in any way.
-
That and regardless of whatever the problem may be, it certainly isn't a lack of "KONY 2012" comments on random Youtube videos and Facebook.
-
The biggest thing about Invisible Children is that they support the Ugandan army which is almost as bad.
-
"Only the dark side deals in absolutes."
-
I (somewhat) agree. Even if Kony goes, the conditions for his existence will still exist and someone else will just take his place.
-
"Only the dark side deals in absolutes."
Got that quote slightly wrong. (It's Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Which in itself is an absolute but hey... Obi-Wan tried) But anyways...
As they say "The more things change the more they stay the same. Boundaries shift, new players step in, but power always finds a place to rest its head."
You take out one slimy bastard you get someone else just as slimy or even worse. That's just how it is.
-
It's funny how so many people posted about Kony on Facebook while very few presented any outrage over the the American Evangelical-backed "Kill the Gays" Bill that is still on Uganda's table.
-
Be really nice if they could get Uganda and Rwanda to leave Congo, hey.
-
It's funny how so many people posted about Kony on Facebook while very few presented any outrage over the the American Evangelical-backed "Kill the Gays" Bill that is still on Uganda's table.
That's funny you bring that up, it turns out that the person behind this whole KONY 2012 stuff is doing this in order to evangelize (http://www.alternet.org/visions/154477/Invisible_Children_%22Kony_2012%22_Leader_Suggests_It's_About_Jesus_and_Evangelizing__/?page=entire).
-
It's funny how so many people posted about Kony on Facebook while very few presented any outrage over the the American Evangelical-backed "Kill the Gays" Bill that is still on Uganda's table.
That's funny you bring that up, it turns out that the person behind this whole KONY 2012 stuff is doing this in order to evangelize (http://www.alternet.org/visions/154477/Invisible_Children_%22Kony_2012%22_Leader_Suggests_It's_About_Jesus_and_Evangelizing__/?page=entire).
/me gags
-
It's funny how so many people posted about Kony on Facebook while very few presented any outrage over the the American Evangelical-backed "Kill the Gays" Bill that is still on Uganda's table.
That's funny you bring that up, it turns out that the person behind this whole KONY 2012 stuff is doing this in order to evangelize (http://www.alternet.org/visions/154477/Invisible_Children_%22Kony_2012%22_Leader_Suggests_It's_About_Jesus_and_Evangelizing__/?page=entire).
/me gags
But that means the whole internet is promoting homophobia and chaos....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA
-
I wouldn't worry about that. Given the response to OneMillionMoms' campaign against Archie and JCPenney, I think the majority of the Internet wouldn't be supporting this group if they knew. When a group goes all "SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!!11!", of course they're going to get people on board. And if they're being all cloak-and-dagger about their real motivation, that kind of suggests that they know this.
-
I (somewhat) agree. Even if Kony goes, the conditions for his existence will still exist and someone else will just take his place.
True. Even still, I think it's important to note the value of publicizing such issues, regardless of whether the face that promotes evil changes or not. I'm not sure where I stand with the whole Kony situation. My son and his tween/teen buddies have certainly been blowing up the internet about it. It's important to understand that such chit is going on in the world and take a more proactive stance in some way. It's to easy to dismiss what doesn't affect us directly.
-
As it turns out, Ugandans are hella pissed about Kony 2012 (http://blogs.aljazeera.com/africa/2012/03/14/ugandans-react-anger-kony-video):
Towards the end of the film, the mood turned more to anger at what many people saw as a foreign, inaccurate account that belittled and commercialised their suffering, as the film promotes Kony bracelets and other fundraising merchandise, with the aim of making Kony infamous.
More over, Invisible Children is in fact backed by anti-Gay far-right Christian groups. It also carries racists implications (http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3889422.html):
Invisible Children, a non-profit organisation with financial connections to hard right Christian fundamentalist organisations, is led by an evangelical Christian. In the tradition of 19th century missionaries, it exists to bring the light of Christian mercy to a corner of Africa. Its central campaign is for the hunt and capture of Joseph Kony, a leader of the Ugandan Lord's Resistance Army (LRA), a rebel group responsible for serious crimes against humanity.
Most offensively, the video is a chauvinist representation of Uganda's plight in the tradition of colonial 'humanitarianism'. African critics, who are not 'invisible' after all, consider the campaign a "white man's burden for the Facebook generation". They say, and it is hard to disagree, that the campaign deprives Ugandans of agency, the ability to resolve their own problems on their own terms. Obliterating context, the campaign recognises Ugandans only as helpless victims, bare-forked creatures in need of the rescue efforts of white Americans – an antique colonial trope.
In fact, Invisible Children is even responsible for anti-gay movements HERE in the US (http://chicago.gopride.com/news/article.cfm/articleid/27380176/kony-2012-charity-invisible-children-linked-to-gay-marriage-ban-prop-8-backersl):
In 2006, Invisible Children gave "special thanks" to the Caster Family Foundation in its annual report. The next year, the group thanked Terry and Barbara Caster.
Gay marriage activist and presidential hopeful Fred Karger in 2008 launched a call-in campaign against A-1 Self Storage, which is owned by San Diego businessman Terry Caster.
"Mr. Caster and many of his eight sons and daughters and their spouses have given a combined total of $293,000 to the Protect Marriage campaign between January and July of 2008," Karger said at the time.
The National Christian Foundation, which has supported a number of anti-gay rights groups, reportedly gave Invisible Children $350,000 in 2007 and $414,000 in 2008.
U.S. Christian conservatives have been accused of attempting to influence Uganda lawmakers to approve an anti-gay bill which would increase the penalties for gay sex, including putting repeat offenders to death under certain circumstances and criminalizing discussions of homosexuality.
-
Yep, Kony hasn't been in Uganda since 2006, and the government conscripted a whole lot of his child soldiers. ALso, notice, African's can get rid of Kony themselves, they don't need mighty whitey coming in with the White Man's Burden and saving them.
-
I've always thought the agency argument was bullshit. If Africans are capable of acting, it says, all of the actions that have led to this point must have been theirs. As one blogger pointed out, that's not even a thought.
It does NOT deny agency to Africans to say that they are being persecuted by an awful person- or a group of people. It does NOT deny agency to them to say that they have found it difficult to combat these people due to lack of organisation or weapons or will or whatever. It is NOT racist to say that we should lend a helping hand*.
*Though I wouldn't trust the US to do so.
-
Aren't a lot of the problems they currently have are BECAUSE we "lent a helping hand"?
-
Pretty much.
-
Aren't a lot of the problems they currently have are BECAUSE we "lent a helping hand"?
Not really. Neither classical nor neo-Imperialism was meant to help Africans, that was just an excuse.
-
Well, isn't that was this is? An excuse, supposed to "help" Africans, but really it's just going to cause more problems.
-
Do you reckon? I mean, sure they have connections to fundamentalist Christian groups, but that doesn't prove that they're insincere. Nor are they the pawns of some neo-imperial conspiracy, like some have suggested. I think they're honestly trying to help out, just in a stupid and shallow way.
Wheras, say, King Leopold did not intend to help Africans- he intended to exploit them.
-
I would think that targeting a warlord who isn't relevant anymore and hasn't been for years proves that they're insincere.
-
I would think that targeting a warlord who isn't relevant anymore and hasn't been for years proves that they're insincere.
We said if they're sincere then they're stupid about it, so they could be a little behind.
-
I would think that targeting a warlord who isn't relevant anymore and hasn't been for years proves that they're insincere.
It's entirely a matter of opinion. Neither of us can read minds. So you can keep yours and I'll keep mine.
Agree that major intervention by the States has and will continue to have a negative effect on Central Africa.
-
So what would be this group's goal, then, if they're insincere? Can we really explain that without delving into conspiracy theory?
-
So what would be this group's goal, then, if they're insincere? Can we really explain that without delving into conspiracy theory?
I don't see why not. It's already been established that they whole KONY 2012 shtick is for the sake of evangelising. I think you could easily say their motivation is to promote their imaginary friend without having to wear an aluminium foil hat.
-
So apparently Uganda is an oil-rich country.
Yeah, totally didn't see that coming. /sarcasm
-
Am I the only one who sees that Mr Kony is a war criminal and the regardless of the reasoning behind invisible children, the outrage of the Ugandan people at the campaign and the fact that he was exiled from Uganda 6 years ago he should still be brought to justice?
Just because he is no longer a relevant warlord and that Uganda is now a stable country does not magically expunge the crimes he committed and lives he ruined? He should just walk free because he isn't killing kids anymore, despite a well documented history of him doing so?
Really it does not matter what or who Invisible children support or what their personal goals are. The fact that Kony is wanted by the international police for war crimes is a fact. They brought light to this fact and although their way of doing so was poorly received by some, it does not change the fact that Kony is a criminal that deserves to be brought to justice. Attacking the principle of bringing an international war criminal to justice just because the people who informed you about him are anti gay is a typical argumentum ad hominem.
Will arresting Kony solve the problems of Africa? Undoubtedly not. Warlords and tin pot dictators are a dime a dozen even in supposedly democratic nations. However, perhaps what should be made apparent is that perhaps its time for the international community to stop pussy footing around international war criminals. Even if they are immediately replace by someone just as bad, its better to arrest both than to just ignore them. By the way, I include Bush in the list of war criminals for starting two illegal wars of aggression and, by extension Obama, for torture. They should be brought to task for these crimes. If the means exists to do so, it should be done.
-
Nobody is denying that Kony is/was a horrible excuse for a human being. Yes, he is a war criminal. But if people really want to raise awareness about him, they can do it without lying out their ass. And at a time when we just got out of another costly war which was waged FOR GREAT JUSTICE, military operations are the last thing we should be spending our money on.
The fact that the organization funding IC is anti-gay is not significant in and of itself. But coupled with the facts that 1) IC lied, 2) Its CEO admits that his goal is evangelism - well, it's pretty easy to see the bigger picture emerging.
-
It's funny how so many people posted about Kony on Facebook while very few presented any outrage over the the American Evangelical-backed "Kill the Gays" Bill that is still on Uganda's table.
That's funny you bring that up, it turns out that the person behind this whole KONY 2012 stuff is doing this in order to evangelize (http://www.alternet.org/visions/154477/Invisible_Children_%22Kony_2012%22_Leader_Suggests_It's_About_Jesus_and_Evangelizing__/?page=entire).
I don't normally say people are gay at random, but that first guy that talks is soooooooo gay.
-
Am I the only one who sees that Mr Kony is a war criminal and the regardless of the reasoning behind invisible children, the outrage of the Ugandan people at the campaign and the fact that he was exiled from Uganda 6 years ago he should still be brought to justice?
Etc...
My other problem is that IC is calling for US intervention into Uganda, ignoring/hiding that the US has been in Uganda for years (supplying the government, and therefore by extension Kony for a while, with arms) and the fact that US intervention has never been good for the people in the country. Humanitarian intervention does not exist.
-
Am I the only one who sees that Mr Kony is a war criminal and the regardless of the reasoning behind invisible children, the outrage of the Ugandan people at the campaign and the fact that he was exiled from Uganda 6 years ago he should still be brought to justice?
[snip]
The problem isn't that Kony is war criminal. Everyone knows he's is and everyone knows he committed horrible violation of human rights. The problem is that the Ugandan Army and government are also horrible violators of human rights, but IC is supporting them nonetheless because they want to evangelize the country (that is already largely Christian) and lying through their teeth to do so. IC isn't about about bringing Kony to justice, it's just propaganda to send "humanitarians" to Uganda.
-
Fred, we're not talking about a massive government conspiracy to, say, fake a moon landing, or kill thousands of civilians in the name of going to war. We're suggesting there may be a conspiracy, among several relatively small Christian groups, to evangelize and spread their warped view of Christianity. That's hardly a far-fetched conclusion. Even if it's not a conspiracy, though, they're quite shady at best, as while they're not exactly hiding their intent, they're hardly advertising it, and they're simply wrong about a great many details for the claims they put forward. And that's being generous.