Author Topic: California's Prison Sterilizations  (Read 18657 times)

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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2014, 10:20:11 pm »
Except having children should they choose to.  A choice that gets taken away from them.

They still can have children, just not biologically.

Okay, I'm addressing nothing else but this, because quite frankly, your lack of self-awareness is astounding.

Criminals, even the ones slated for the death penalty, have just as much right to intact reproductive systems as they have the right to keep both kidneys.

Advocating that they have their reproductive systems tampered with is, morally, not a single bit different than advocating that someone cut into them and rip out a kidney.

Criminals are human beings.  Not cattle.  Even the ones on death row, right now.

Or would you rather we go back to ancient times where criminals aren't even given food or water unless a family member brings it to them?

Also, would you be alright with me going over to your house right now and, without your consent, sterilizing you?

Because right now, you're saying the same damn things that the people who sterilized Alan Turing said.  Remember, it was illegal to be gay in those times.  And since that made him a criminal, therefore no one should have had any sympathy for him.  By your logic.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 10:25:16 pm by Magus Silveresti »
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2014, 10:39:43 pm »
Except having children should they choose to.  A choice that gets taken away from them.

They still can have children, just not biologically.

I'm confused. You're against criminals having biological children, but would still want to let them adopt? That policy seems inconsistent.

Or is this more of a "well, in case they clean up their act and go back to deserving children, we can't reverse sterilization but we can let them adopt" contingency plan?
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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2014, 12:06:41 am »
Criminals, even the ones slated for the death penalty, have just as much right to intact reproductive systems as they have the right to keep both kidneys.

Aren't you against the death penalty? You seem to be more upset that they would be sterilized than the fact that the state is going to kill them. (And it would be pointless to sterilize someone on death row)

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Advocating that they have their reproductive systems tampered with is, morally, not a single bit different than advocating that someone cut into them and rip out a kidney.

There are long term health effects of only having one kidney, as well as dealing with the risks of only having one kidney, so it's not comparable. Plus it doesn't serve a purpose towards the criminal like sterilization does.

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Also, would you be alright with me going over to your house right now and, without your consent, sterilizing you?

No because you'd be breaking into my house. Also, I'm not a hardened criminal.

Would you be okay with me kidnapping you and making you live in a metal cage for a couple years?

Oh, and there's something else I forgot to mention


Sterilization is done for a good reason, it prevents them from having children.

Which serves no practical purpose other than to punish someone after their time has served.


Many criminals are limited in what jobs or actions they can take after being released. Do you consider this wrong?

Since I don't remember if you've addressed this before, and frankly I'm not inclined to wade through the wharrgble, can you tell us, Cataclysm, what specific crimes should justify sterilization? And how would you address the fact that false convictions happen when implementing this program?

Well, sterilizing prisoners isn't in my top 20 issues, so I haven't worked out the details. Basically very minor crimes shouldn't warrant sterilization, and neither should crimes that shouldn't be crimes (ie smoking weed).

The effect that different criminals have probably varies from state to state, or even from different counties, so they should be the ones creating most of the rules.

Sterilization would likely be done at the end of one's prison time, so that if evidence that one was innocent came up, they wouldn't be sterilized before release. However,the evidence came up after they served their time...

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Since our justice system only calls for conviction beyond a REASONABLE doubt, not beyond ANY POSSIBILITY of doubt, then we tacitly acknowledge the fact that the justice system makes mistakes; this is also why I'm against the death penalty. What would you recommend happen, Cataclysm, if someone wrongfully convicted were sterilized?

What would you recommend if someone who was wrongfully convicted spent years in prison? Currently our system doesn't do anything, using the logic that the courts weren't intending to put an innocent person in jail, so they shouldn't be held accountable. I don't agree with this and do think that the government should do some monetary compensations. I'd imagine that someone who has been wrongfully convicted would care more about getting back the time and opportunities lost.

However, since it can be argued that the government has unfairly taken away that ability, it should pay for somatic-cell nuclear transfer of the person in order for the person to create gametes so they can have biological children, or if possibly pay for a surgery that can reverse the sterilization should these technologies become commonplace.

Or is this more of a "well, in case they clean up their act and go back to deserving children, we can't reverse sterilization but we can let them adopt" contingency plan?

Essentially.
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Offline mellenORL

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2014, 12:31:10 am »
Meanwhile, back in California....women are being intimidated into signing consent forms for sterilization, and not based on their crimes, but based primarily on how many children they already have.

I also find it interesting that there was no mention of male inmates being coerced into it. And it seems also likely that sterilized female prisoners don't get pregnant from rape by guards and admins.

WHY the fuck would the system spend the fucking money on these procedures, for women, which cost 8 times more than sterilizing males? "Lighten the welfare load!" or is it more like "The docs make money, and if the guards get frisky, we don't have a scandal."

ADDENDUM:

Oh and I have another thought...betcha ten bucks the ovaries were placed on ice and snuck out by ol' Doc Heinrich. Ova. Raw material for stem cell technician training and for actual cultivation on the black market, overseas, or here, under the radar.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 12:42:22 am by mellenORL »
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Offline rageaholic

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2014, 12:57:11 am »
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Quote from: Magus Silveresti on Today at 01:28:59 AM
Except having children should they choose to.  A choice that gets taken away from them.

They still can have children, just not biologically.

That's just as ridiculous as the argument that gays can still get married (opposite sex).  It ignores the point
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Gee, I dunno, let me make a life-changing and permanent decision for you, without your consent, and without your say, and let me see how well you adjust to life.

So you think we shouldn’t send criminals to prison then?

Your comparison of sterilization to the removal of limbs is completely based on emotion and the irrational value this culture places on having biological children.

I'm not going to argue that prison is a cakewalk, but it's in a different ball park as forcing someone to undergo a life changing medical procedure.  One is a necessary determinant to keep dangerous felons from hurting others.  The other is needless extra punishment that's not necessary. 

Offline Askold

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2014, 12:59:12 am »
Actually, why is there a need to do it when they are going into jail? After all, the only ways they can get pregnant in jail are the "conjugal visits" which can be denied if they don't want pregnant prisoners OR if they have sex with the guards. Which is all kinds of wrong and illegal.

IF they feel that some of the prisoners aren't cut out to be parents then they could do the sterilisation just before they are released. That way they could make a judgement based on how they behaved in jail and if they perhaps changed their ways.

I mean, this thing does start to sound worse and worse when you think about it. Either they truly believe in "criminal dna," an inheritable criminal tendency that cannot be cured or this is a setup to help the guards rape prisoners.
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Offline Damen

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2014, 01:02:11 am »
I'm just going to cut right to the chase here.

-bullshit snip-

-more shit snip-

« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 01:09:38 am by Damen »
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2014, 01:18:56 am »
So this is the hill you've chosen to die on, huh?

They still can have children, just not biologically.

Well that's a relief, I'm sure they wouldn't mind you doing permanent damage to their reproductive organs then. Tell me, if someone wanted to make the teeniest change to your plumbing so you couldn't have children would you be comfortable with that?

So you think we shouldn’t send criminals to prison then?

Nope, I didn't hear a single person saying that absolutely none of the women should have been in lockup. But sterilisation was not part of their sentences and they didn't uniformly have life sentences either.

Your comparison of sterilization to the removal of limbs is completely based on emotion and the irrational value this culture places on having biological children.

And not at all based on the unfortunate fact that neither your limbs nor your genitals grow back if removed!

Sure, you think children less well off then they should be, that’s so regarding ::)

So that's why you want to sterilize women because they happen to be in prison, because you are saying "won't someone think of the children" who-presumably are hypothetical at this point?

If children raised by criminals in a certain time-frame are on average worse off than children who are not, then forced sterilization would be justified, since it is beneficial to society. If they are no worse off, then it wouldn't be justified.

And it’s the same things with prisons. If criminals are as likely or less likely to commit further crimes if they aren't sent to prison, and just have to take rehabilitation classes, or go through another program, then prisons wouldn't be justified.

Of course, it's not like a society can do anything to help these women before they end up in jail-except that is entirely possible, the same goes with assisting these women get through the difficult period of motherhood.

Also-I don't think there is a judge or a lawyer on the planet who wouldn't take issue with your horrendously simplistic view of rehabilitation programs, they don't have nice simplistic if-then outcomes because they are dealing with these messy things called "people". Some people will get help through a program, others won't-in some cases it's up to the participants to want that help, and some might have good days and bad days because they are you know-human.

Raising children is a responsibility, not a right.

If you are suggesting that breeding is a privilege granted by the state then I think you are on very shaky ground. Under which jurisdiction do states have this privilege, the  United States, Australia, the United Kingdom or is it covered in the UN convention on the rights of the child? I'd like to see you cite the relevant law, statute or treaty if you are making this claim.

They are guilty.

Except in cases of wrongful conviction, and they were never sentenced to sterilisation, your opinions notwithstanding!

My position that forced sterilization isn't any more invasive than prison time, not that's it's not invasive at all.

Your position is backed neither by hard data or lived experience, also prison time-except in the rare cases of life sentences has a definite start and finish date. Sterilisations are forever!

Except women getting the abortions they want is an inherently good thing, while leaving criminals fertile isn't. If there's statistics and studies that show otherwise, show me.

You have the burden of proof precisely backwards, you are the one claiming that spaying or neutering criminals has any measurable social benefit!

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2014, 03:09:46 am »
I'm really interested in seeing how Cataclysm will attempt to weasel around Tolpuddle's arguments.
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Offline Askold

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2014, 03:43:58 am »
They still can have children, just not biologically.
[/quote]

Then what is the point? Why sterilize them if you are going to allow them to have adopted children? The only difference is DNA and unless you actually believe that criminality is caused by DNA this makes no sense. If they are bad parents why would you give them adopted children? If they are good parents why would you not let them have biological kids?

Speaking of biological children, what about the kids they already have? Will they be taken from them? Can the ones who are allowed to adopt kids have their own kids back or is it the combination of parent being a criminal and the child being their biological child the only one you oppose?
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2014, 04:02:05 am »
Something of a side issue, but isn't forced sterilisation of women convicts a bit convenient in cases where the pregnancy occurred in jail and the father was one of the guards, particularly if the sex was non consensual? This totally happens by the way!

If Cataclysm and the people behind the forced sterilisations had their way then prison guards would feel free to merrily rape and/or sexually exploit as many women convicts as they like and never have to face a paternity suit!

Offline starseeker

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2014, 06:09:58 am »
Would it be less evil to have prisoners of both sexes on long term contraception while in prison, which would last for a year after release? Would allow them a year before getting pregnant or getting someone pregant to get their lives together?

Offline Askold

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2014, 06:17:15 am »
I was going to comment that there should be no need for contraception during their time in prison, but I suppose it would be smart to give condoms to male prisoners to help protect them from STDs.

Seriously though, unless conjugal visits are a thing why would gender segregated prisoners be in danger of getting pregnant (or impregnating someone?)
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2014, 06:17:51 am »
Having contraceptives given to prisoners would be sensible.

However if said prisoners are having to hook just to get reasonable sanitary supplies, or if the sex is flat out forced on them then the choice to apply contraceptives might not be quite so clear cut.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2014, 07:35:33 am »
You know, Cataclysm, there was another man who advocated forcibly sterilizing people.



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