Author Topic: California's Prison Sterilizations  (Read 18572 times)

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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2014, 07:54:45 am »
You know, Cataclysm, there was another man who advocated forcibly sterilizing people.

Damnit Paragon, I wanted him to find a jurisdiction where breeding was a privilege granted by the state by himself! Let the guy do a bit of his own legwork!

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2014, 08:45:32 am »
Why don't we just cut to the chase and say that anyone going on welfare has to be sterilized in order to receive benefits. It would be quicker, cheaper and more efficient.

Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2014, 09:51:23 am »
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Just to play devil's advocate, I can see eugenics becoming an effective way to control crime because it would target the genes rather than the person; the urge to reproduce and pass our genes on is one of our strongest instincts. Many people who would happily do prison time would hesitate, at least, if they knew they ran the risk of losing their ability to have children. Any such effort would take years to show any sort of effect, though.
Well 1. There's no evidence that genes themselves cause crime.
2. Raping and torturing them would also deter crime.

I see I didn't make my point clearly.

I know there isn't any evidence of "criminal genes" in and of themselves. What I was referring to was targeting the instinct to breed itself. Even without specific genes driving a criminal behavior, taking away the ability to reproduce would ping on people's instincts a lot harder than many of the punishments our system has nowadays.

As to point two, "effective" isn't the same as "right"; I don't believe the ends justify the means. If the means can't stand on their own, then the means are wrong, period. Whether sterilizing criminals would be an effective strategy or not, it's still a massive human rights violation.

Since our justice system only calls for conviction beyond a REASONABLE doubt, not beyond ANY POSSIBILITY of doubt, then we tacitly acknowledge the fact that the justice system makes mistakes; this is also why I'm against the death penalty. What would you recommend happen, Cataclysm, if someone wrongfully convicted were sterilized?

What would you recommend if someone who was wrongfully convicted spent years in prison? Currently our system doesn't do anything, using the logic that the courts weren't intending to put an innocent person in jail, so they shouldn't be held accountable. I don't agree with this and do think that the government should do some monetary compensations. I'd imagine that someone who has been wrongfully convicted would care more about getting back the time and opportunities lost.

However, since it can be argued that the government has unfairly taken away that ability, it should pay for somatic-cell nuclear transfer of the person in order for the person to create gametes so they can have biological children, or if possibly pay for a surgery that can reverse the sterilization should these technologies become commonplace.

I agree that they should be financially compensated; I also think the prosecutors in the case, at the very least, should be liable for false prosecution, both criminally and civilly.

As for your suggestion on how to handle cases of wrongful sterilization (if sterilization were made part of a sentence), what about prisoners who have moral or religious objections to in vetro fertilization? Or those who refuse blood transfusions for similar reasons and therefore wouldn't survive a sterilization surgery?
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Offline Second Coming of Madman

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2014, 10:05:35 am »
You know, Cataclysm, there was another man who advocated forcibly sterilizing people.



Normally, I'd call this a Godwin, but if the jackboot fits...
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2014, 10:10:40 am »
Well, this is coming from the kid that, when he first arrived here, spent an inordinate amount of time on ProBoards arguing that forcibly (thru ingesting hormones) stopping his own puberty was a good idea.  The kid's a bullheaded moron and/or a troll.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 10:13:39 am by RavynousHunter »
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Offline I am lizard

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2014, 11:25:39 am »
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Sterilization would likely be done at the end of one's prison time, so that if evidence that one was innocent came up, they wouldn't be sterilized before there release?
I'm confused, why would he support the recent sterilizations then? I'm fairly sure they didn't sterilize them at the end of there release. 

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2014, 01:55:46 pm »
You know, Cataclysm, there was another man who advocated forcibly sterilizing people.

[picture of Hitler snipped]

Normally, I'd call this a Godwin, but if the jackboot fits...

Nope, still a Godwin.
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Offline Ironchew

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2014, 02:06:23 pm »
Quote
Just to play devil's advocate, I can see eugenics becoming an effective way to control crime because it would target the genes rather than the person; the urge to reproduce and pass our genes on is one of our strongest instincts. Many people who would happily do prison time would hesitate, at least, if they knew they ran the risk of losing their ability to have children. Any such effort would take years to show any sort of effect, though.
Well 1. There's no evidence that genes themselves cause crime.
2. Raping and torturing them would also deter crime.

I see I didn't make my point clearly.

I know there isn't any evidence of "criminal genes" in and of themselves. What I was referring to was targeting the instinct to breed itself. Even without specific genes driving a criminal behavior, taking away the ability to reproduce would ping on people's instincts a lot harder than many of the punishments our system has nowadays.

It's just a hunch, but I don't believe criminals would be successfully deterred by the threat of sterilization. We already have data on murder rates in states with and without capital punishment; curiously enough, the states with capital punishment had a consistently higher murder rate.

Besides, we have tons of unjust laws in the United States, especially applying to drug use and copyright law. Citizens will continue to be thrown in prison simply for living a normal life.
Consumption is not a politically combative act — refraining from consumption even less so.

Offline I am lizard

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2014, 02:43:46 pm »
You know, Cataclysm, there was another man who advocated forcibly sterilizing people.

[picture of Hitler snipped]

Normally, I'd call this a Godwin, but if the jackboot fits...

Nope, still a Godwin.
I will point that Godwin's law only-
HOOOLLLLLLLYYYY SHIT, CATYCLYSM FUCKING APPROVES OF EUGENICS!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 03:56:38 pm by I am lizard »

Offline Ironchew

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2014, 02:55:39 pm »
HOOOLLLLLLLYYYY SHIT, CATYCLYSM FUCKING APROVES OF MUTILATING TEENAGE GIRLS!

[citation needed]
Consumption is not a politically combative act — refraining from consumption even less so.

Offline I am lizard

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2014, 04:01:40 pm »
HOOOLLLLLLLYYYY SHIT, CATYCLYSM FUCKING APROVES OF MUTILATING TEENAGE GIRLS!

[citation needed]
Okay, I admit that was a total exaggeration, Cat merely suggest that we perform permanent, life changing surgery on people without consent.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 04:04:39 pm by I am lizard »

Offline I am lizard

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2014, 04:08:12 pm »
Quote
Just to play devil's advocate, I can see eugenics becoming an effective way to control crime because it would target the genes rather than the person; the urge to reproduce and pass our genes on is one of our strongest instincts. Many people who would happily do prison time would hesitate, at least, if they knew they ran the risk of losing their ability to have children. Any such effort would take years to show any sort of effect, though.
Well 1. There's no evidence that genes themselves cause crime.
2. Raping and torturing them would also deter crime.

I see I didn't make my point clearly.

I know there isn't any evidence of "criminal genes" in and of themselves. What I was referring to was targeting the instinct to breed itself. Even without specific genes driving a criminal behavior, taking away the ability to reproduce would ping on people's instincts a lot harder than many of the punishments our system has nowadays.

It's just a hunch, but I don't believe criminals would be successfully deterred by the threat of sterilization. We already have data on murder rates in states with and without capital punishment; curiously enough, the states with capital punishment had a consistently higher murder rate.

Besides, we have tons of unjust laws in the United States, especially applying to drug use and copyright law. Citizens will continue to be thrown in prison simply for living a normal life.
I don't think that is directly caused by the death penalty, and is most likely because states who have the death penalty are going to follow the logic that "Spending money on abortion, education, and foodstamps is bad. Spending money on lethal injection is good.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2014, 07:39:07 pm »
You know, Cataclysm, there was another man who advocated forcibly sterilizing people.

[picture of Hitler snipped]

Normally, I'd call this a Godwin, but if the jackboot fits...

Nope, still a Godwin.
I will point that Godwin's law only-
HOOOLLLLLLLYYYY SHIT, CATYCLYSM FUCKING APPROVES OF EUGENICS!

Meh. I support some forms of eugenics as at least interesting ideas (not this one in particular, or in general any that involve force and non-consent). Saying "This was supported by Hitler!" or "This is eugenics!" is lazy arguing. Things are not wrong because of who else liked them or because of which particular word you choose to apply to it. Things are wrong because of reasons like being forced on unwilling participants on flimsy justification.

Call me crazy, but focusing on shitty arguments when the good ones are plentiful bothers me.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2014, 08:20:10 pm »
Meh, I prefer to just flail about in an incoherent rage until I break thru a wall like the Incredible Hulk.
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Offline I am lizard

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Re: California's Prison Sterilizations
« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2014, 09:09:36 pm »
You know, Cataclysm, there was another man who advocated forcibly sterilizing people.

[picture of Hitler snipped]

Normally, I'd call this a Godwin, but if the jackboot fits...

Nope, still a Godwin.
I will point that Godwin's law only-
HOOOLLLLLLLYYYY SHIT, CATYCLYSM FUCKING APPROVES OF EUGENICS!

Meh. I support some forms of eugenics as at least interesting ideas (not this one in particular, or in general any that involve force and non-consent). Saying "This was supported by Hitler!" or "This is eugenics!" is lazy arguing. Things are not wrong because of who else liked them or because of which particular word you choose to apply to it. Things are wrong because of reasons like being forced on unwilling participants on flimsy justification.

Call me crazy, but focusing on shitty arguments when the good ones are plentiful bothers me.
Well sure it's lazy, but I will point out that this is one of those cases where a Godwin makes a certain level of sense considering Cat has already voiced how he's okay with performing illegal surgery on prisoners and the homeless.
My main beef with UP's use of Godwin's law is uncreative he was with it.
(Next time try "I remember one society that supported sterilizing undesirable aspects of the population,  but sadly they haven't been around since 1944" "I heard of a book advocating getting rid of segments of the population, I would read it, but I can't understand German" )