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Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: KZN02 on April 21, 2013, 05:12:12 pm

Title: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: KZN02 on April 21, 2013, 05:12:12 pm
Link (http://gawker.com/5995168/china-wants-to-ban-superstition-mandate-science)

Welp, cue the religious folks in the US ranting the godlessness of Communism or something.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Dynamic Dragon on April 21, 2013, 05:22:23 pm
Link (http://gawker.com/5995168/china-wants-to-ban-superstition-mandate-science)

Welp, cue the religious folks in the US ranting the godlessness of Communism or something.
Banning religion?  I thought they'd moved past hardline Communism.  This is a human rights violation, plain and simple.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on April 21, 2013, 05:31:59 pm
This should end well.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: niam2023 on April 21, 2013, 05:33:28 pm
Even if it is a human rights violation, this is so fascinating. I want to see where it'd go. What kind of effect it'll have.

This...this abandonment of the past is just incredible.

A world without tradition, without laws coming from old times, without suspicions derived of past ages...that is a kind of world I'd like to live in, if only for curiosity's sake.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 21, 2013, 05:38:36 pm
LOL, good luck with that.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: niam2023 on April 21, 2013, 06:41:53 pm
I endorse it, if only on the level of scientific curiosity.

Because, as I stated, I want to know what a world without a past, without tradition, would be like.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Rime on April 21, 2013, 07:29:14 pm
I believe that's the purpose of Nihilism.  I still find it quite distasteful.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Saturn500 on April 21, 2013, 07:55:18 pm
I think Richard "Teaching Religion = Child Abuse" Dawkins just had an orgasm due to sheer bliss.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: ThunderWulf on April 21, 2013, 08:11:18 pm
The problem I see with this is it's FORCED skepticism of religion than actual skepticism of it.  That's not a positive movement in any direction if you're forced against your will to do so.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: niam2023 on April 21, 2013, 08:17:58 pm
I don't find nihilism too distasteful, if "the world lacks a past" is what it is.

We've had far too much trouble with the meager old "its tradition" excuse, for why things are bad.

The "we believe this way" excuse for why things are bad.

The "We Did Things This Way In The Past" excuse...

And lets not forget the racists and their little pride in their nationality.

EVERYTHING that has made people miserable is an old idea, an old ideal of capitalism having to be this way or that way, or its communism, a fear ages old, that should not be relevant. OLD! Its always old things!
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Captain Jack Harkness on April 21, 2013, 08:37:11 pm
The problem I see with this is it's FORCED skepticism of religion than actual skepticism of it.  That's not a positive movement in any direction if you're forced against your will to do so.

This.  You can't tell people what to think.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Undecided on April 21, 2013, 08:53:03 pm
This...this abandonment of the past is just incredible.
Uh...not really, considering the Cultural Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution) and especially the Destruction of the Four Olds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds).
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 21, 2013, 08:54:53 pm
This...this abandonment of the past is just incredible.
Uh...not really, considering the Cultural Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution) and especially the Destruction of the Four Olds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds).

Yeah, I think China is trying to go back to the "Cultural Revolution" mindset. It had been drifting away from it for a while still maintaining strict censorship of dissenting views.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Rabbit of Caerbannog on April 21, 2013, 09:37:53 pm
I think Richard "Teaching Religion = Child Abuse" Dawkins just had an orgasm due to sheer bliss.
I doubt he'd be in favor of this.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Stormwarden on April 21, 2013, 09:48:12 pm
There are limits. Leaving religion is great when it's consensual. It isn't so good when it is forced. Do we not all agree that criminalizing certain thoughts is a bad idea? There's a good reason why crimes in the US require BOTH a criminal act (Actus Reus) and a criminal intent (Mens Rea). I do hope China realizes what can of worms it's about to open, and I hope they'll be able to close it again when they realize the unintended consequences of their actions.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Askold on April 22, 2013, 12:11:04 am
The problem I see with this is it's FORCED skepticism of religion than actual skepticism of it.  That's not a positive movement in any direction if you're forced against your will to do so.

This.  You can't tell people what to think.
I am not sure if this even qualifies as "forced skeptism." If their stated goal is to weed out religions, then it sounds like the new education will be against all religions and promoting just atheism. So basically they aer promoting one set of belief and trying to discredit the others, how is this different from promoting a religion? And what happens to those people who still want to be religious? People should be allowed to make their own worldview.

If it was just "everyone will be taught about all religions without claiming that one of these is the one true version and the others are the heathen stuff, then it would be much better.

Then again the articles didn't really explain the exact method they are planning so maybe I just misunderstood.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Cataclysm on April 22, 2013, 12:23:23 am
Link (http://gawker.com/5995168/china-wants-to-ban-superstition-mandate-science)

Welp, cue the religious folks in the US ranting the godlessness of Communism or something.
Banning religion?  I thought they'd moved past hardline Communism.  This is a human rights violation, plain and simple.

Well, economically.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: ironbite on April 22, 2013, 01:01:06 am
Link (http://gawker.com/5995168/china-wants-to-ban-superstition-mandate-science)

Welp, cue the religious folks in the US ranting the godlessness of Communism or something.
Banning religion?  I thought they'd moved past hardline Communism.  This is a human rights violation, plain and simple.

While I'll agree it's a stupid thing...human rights violation?  Dude.

Ironbite-come on.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 22, 2013, 01:52:21 am
Link (http://gawker.com/5995168/china-wants-to-ban-superstition-mandate-science)

Welp, cue the religious folks in the US ranting the godlessness of Communism or something.
Banning religion?  I thought they'd moved past hardline Communism.  This is a human rights violation, plain and simple.

While I'll agree it's a stupid thing...human rights violation?  Dude.

Ironbite-come on.

Freedom of thought and belief is a human right.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Art Vandelay on April 22, 2013, 02:31:25 am
I'd love to see religion marginalised, but this isn't the way to go about it. Instead, put more emphasis on science in schools of all levels, put more funding into research and museums and the like and when religion is taught in schools, teach it the same way you'd teach any other mythology. As fiction. How to fund this? Simple. Instead of giving religious institutions a tax exempt status, classify it as a demerit service and tax the everloving shit out of it. The same goes for religious schools. Tax rather than subsidise, and regulate to ensure they teach proper science, even if it conflicts with their faith.

That's how it should be done. No need to outright ban religion, just stop giving it undue reverence in society.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: RavynousHunter on April 22, 2013, 02:44:12 am
If we weren't afraid to teach kids hard facts outside of math class, we'd probably be a lot further along than we are now.  Kids can smell bullshit, and the perceptive ones know when they're being lied to by supposed authorities.  The smart ones, like I was (not to toot my own horn...I was above-average, in this case), go and look up the facts ourselves.  We look up shit like how evolution works, how condoms work and how well, et cetera.

However, this number would be a fuckton higher if we dispensed with the myths, dispensed with the lies, and just told our kids the fucking truth.  My parents, for all their faults, were always honest with me.  When I came asking how I was born, they told me the truth, in a way I, at the time, could understand.  When they talked to me about sex...which was mostly my mother's doing, they realized that there was every chance that I'd be one of the majority of folks who wouldn't save themselves for marriage, and emphasized safe sex, particularly using a fucking rubber.  Yes, they're religious folks, and when I asked where we came from, they gave me the Christian answer for it, but they in their own minds, were still being perfectly honest, they weren't knowingly deceiving me or trying to bullshit me.  Hell, even now, my mother's taking me aside, at times, and explaining shit to me that I need to know so I can survive when I'm on my own, like how to handle potential bankruptcy, taxes, how to spot good deals from bad ones, how to avoid getting swindled.

Unlike a lotta folks, they actually care about seeing me grow as my own person, and not just as a copy of themselves.  So long as I'm successful and happy, they're happy, and that's how it should be.  They gave, and continue to give, me the tools I need to survive; no lies, no manipulation, no deception, no bullshit.  That should be America's new slogan, not "In God We Trust" or "E pluribus unum," but simply "No bullshit."
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on April 22, 2013, 04:51:48 am
Worth mentioning the little fact that most science departments in Chinese universities are administered by state bureaucrats who often have no academic background in the departments they administer and that there is widespread pseudoscience and scientific fraud in said departments (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/world/asia/07fraud.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&).

Given that it'd be interesting to see what does get passed as "good science" by the Chinese state.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Sigmaleph on April 22, 2013, 08:17:41 am
There is an annoying lack of detail regarding how this would be implemented. Though, in any case, it seems terribly likely that whatever they do won't work. If the government is seen to be pushing against an idea some will immediately push back, on that principle alone. Even they recognise that:

Quote
"Religion has been around for a very long time, and if we rush to try to push for results and want to immediately 'liberate' people from the influence of religion, then it will have the opposite effect and push people in the opposite direction."

Based on that, finding an active* strategy a government could use that would successfully dissuade their populace from superstition is a nontrivial problem. (Robin Hanson once suggested (http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/03/loving-cranks-to-death.html) that the best you could do to get rid of religion was to socialize it and bureaucratize it. I don't know if that would work, but I strongly suspect that's not the approach China will take)


*As opposed to a passive strategy of staying silent on the subject and letting science assert itself, which seems to be working well enough in most of the world.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Distind on April 22, 2013, 08:30:37 am
So, how would this be any different from what they've been doing for decades now?
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: rageaholic on April 22, 2013, 08:52:28 am
The problem I see with this is it's FORCED skepticism of religion than actual skepticism of it.  That's not a positive movement in any direction if you're forced against your will to do so.

Yeah forced skepticism isn't skepticism. 

I hate China.  It does not seem like a nice place to live. 
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: The Illusive Man on April 22, 2013, 03:47:44 pm
While I'll agree it's a stupid thing...human rights violation?  Dude.
Ironbite-come on.
Mass killings anyone?
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Old Viking on April 22, 2013, 04:26:36 pm
Banning religion simply plays into the "We're being persecuted" complaint.  Watching religion destroy itself is the fun way to go.
Title: Re: China Wants to Ban Religion, Mandate Science
Post by: Askold on April 22, 2013, 11:30:39 pm
Banning religion simply plays into the "We're being persecuted" complaint.  Watching religion destroy itself is the fun way to go.
Well if the religion is banned then they really are persecuted. Just because some religions like to play the victim doesn't mean that religious persecution doesn't happen in some places.