Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 1548521 times)

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Art Vandelay

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6900 on: September 08, 2015, 10:10:48 pm »
That reminds me of a post of FSTDT way back when. It was a racist arguing that "I hate niggers" doesn't actually mean "I hate all black people", but rather "I hate 'gangsta' black people".

Horseshoe theory never fails to disappoint.

Offline Askold

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6901 on: September 09, 2015, 02:12:52 am »
That reminds me of a post of FSTDT way back when. It was a racist arguing that "I hate niggers" doesn't actually mean "I hate all black people", but rather "I hate 'gangsta' black people".

Horseshoe theory never fails to disappoint.

KKK member said that in the Michael Moore series as well. They were trying to rebrand the word nigger so that it would people of all ethnics groups who the KKK thought to be worthless scum.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6902 on: September 09, 2015, 08:18:23 am »


Isn't this body-shaming?

Even Then

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6903 on: September 09, 2015, 08:51:13 am »
No, because there's a difference between hating real women with big boobs and hating sexually objectified, stereotyped character design.

However, Ernest is still full of shit because sexism and racism are two different issues.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6904 on: September 09, 2015, 09:12:22 am »
No, because there's a difference between hating real women with big boobs and hating sexually objectified, stereotyped character design.

When's the last game a legitimate "bimbo" actually existed in gaming?  As in, is legitimately dumb and useless, and only exists for eye candy?  Google and I are both drawing a blank.

Besides, there are plenty of women who genuinely enjoy sexualized female characters.  It's not just lesbian and bisexual women either.  Why?  Simply put, because lots of women want to be them.

However, Ernest is still full of shit because sexism and racism are two different issues.

And having a character with big breasts isn't "sexism".  Honestly, this guy's stereotyping (admittedly fictitious) women based on their appearance.  How is that not misogynistic?

Moreover, it's strange that he compares his "fighting" against "big-boobed bimbos" to black activists fighting against racist stereotypes because "they were sick of black people being portrayed as servants and amusement for white people".  He's not a woman so what gives him the authority to decide that it's the same for women?  How does he know that women are "sick" of anything?  Isn't talking over women and telling them what they are or should be offended by kinda mansplaining?

Even Then

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6905 on: September 09, 2015, 09:25:25 am »
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When's the last game a legitimate "bimbo" actually existed in gaming?  As in, is legitimately dumb and useless, and only exists for eye candy?

Fair.

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Honestly, this guy's stereotyping (admittedly fictitious) women based on their appearance.  How is that not misogynistic?

It's this same refrain I see from dudebros on Tumblr: "If you're criticizing this needlessly sexualized design, you're being misogynistic! Why do you hate women who dress sexily, feminists?" Which... no. That's not how it works. At all.

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Moreover, it's strange that he compares his "fighting" against "big-boobed bimbos" to black activists fighting against racist stereotypes because "they were sick of black people being portrayed as servants and amusement for white people".  He's not a woman so what gives him the authority to decide that it's the same for women?  How does he know that women are "sick" of anything?  Isn't talking over women and telling them what they are or should be offended by kinda mansplaining?

Yeah, comparing the two issues is offensive to the actual literal fucking slavery black people went through. And sure, there might be women who don't mind, or women who like the designs. But... maybe he... listens to the scores of women who do have an issue with it? Some women not minding constant sexualization of women in gaming doesn't erase the fact that women are consistently sexualized while men aren't. (And vice versa, tbf.)

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6906 on: September 09, 2015, 09:38:19 am »
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Honestly, this guy's stereotyping (admittedly fictitious) women based on their appearance.  How is that not misogynistic?

It's this same refrain I see from dudebros on Tumblr: "If you're criticizing this needlessly sexualized design, you're being misogynistic! Why do you hate women who dress sexily, feminists?" Which... no. That's not how it works. At all.

Then pray tell, how exactly does it work?

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Moreover, it's strange that he compares his "fighting" against "big-boobed bimbos" to black activists fighting against racist stereotypes because "they were sick of black people being portrayed as servants and amusement for white people".  He's not a woman so what gives him the authority to decide that it's the same for women?  How does he know that women are "sick" of anything?  Isn't talking over women and telling them what they are or should be offended by kinda mansplaining?

Yeah, comparing the two issues is offensive to the actual literal fucking slavery black people went through. And sure, there might be women who don't mind, or women who like the designs. But... maybe he... listens to the scores of women who do have an issue with it? Some women not minding constant sexualization of women in gaming doesn't erase the fact that women are consistently sexualized while men aren't. (And vice versa, tbf.)

Define "consistently".  What about Jade from Beyond Good and Evil?  Or Joanna Dark?  Or numerous Bioware characters?

And I don't doubt that some women have problems with it.  But here's my question: why don't they just enjoy games that fit their standards?  Like George Carlin said, it's freedom of choice!  Don't like a game, don't play it.  Nobody's forcing you to.

Art Vandelay

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6907 on: September 09, 2015, 09:53:10 am »
And I don't doubt that some women have problems with it.  But here's my question: why don't they just enjoy games that fit their standards?  Like George Carlin said, it's freedom of choice!  Don't like a game, don't play it.  Nobody's forcing you to.
In all fairness, nobody's trying to literally force people to only write characters that appeal to them (granted, there's always a few of those idiots, but they can get fucked), they're simply voicing their own desires for less sexualised female characters. That's also a rather important freedom, last I checked, and it's not a bad thing, either. That sort of feedback is kind of important for developers if they want to know what their audience wants.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6908 on: September 09, 2015, 09:55:37 am »
And I don't doubt that some women have problems with it.  But here's my question: why don't they just enjoy games that fit their standards?  Like George Carlin said, it's freedom of choice!  Don't like a game, don't play it.  Nobody's forcing you to.
In all fairness, nobody's trying to literally force people to only write characters that appeal to them (granted, there's always a few of those idiots, but they can get fucked), they're simply voicing their own desires for less sexualised female characters. That's also a rather important freedom, last I checked, and it's not a bad thing, either. That sort of feedback is kind of important for developers if they want to know what their audience wants.

Oh, I have no problem with female characters who are less sexualized.  My problem comes from the implication that sexualized female characters are inherently sinful problematic and have to go.

Art Vandelay

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6909 on: September 09, 2015, 10:00:01 am »
And I don't doubt that some women have problems with it.  But here's my question: why don't they just enjoy games that fit their standards?  Like George Carlin said, it's freedom of choice!  Don't like a game, don't play it.  Nobody's forcing you to.
In all fairness, nobody's trying to literally force people to only write characters that appeal to them (granted, there's always a few of those idiots, but they can get fucked), they're simply voicing their own desires for less sexualised female characters. That's also a rather important freedom, last I checked, and it's not a bad thing, either. That sort of feedback is kind of important for developers if they want to know what their audience wants.

Oh, I have no problem with female characters who are less sexualized.  My problem comes from the implication that sexualized female characters are inherently sinful problematic and have to go.

Sure, but that's not exactly the point I was addressing.

Even Then

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6910 on: September 09, 2015, 10:24:26 am »
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Define "consistently".  What about Jade from Beyond Good and Evil?  Or Joanna Dark?  Or numerous Bioware characters?

Consistently =/= EVERY GAME EBER. Consistently = this happens often enough to be a trend.

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Then pray tell, how exactly does it work?

Criticizing a design is not the same as criticizing a real person. The women from DoA, to have an example, aren't real. They aren't dressing sexily because they want to, like real-life women are, they're dressing sexily because they were designed as softcore porn. And that's why there's no point in crying misogyny when oversexualized female design is criticized.

Oh, I have no problem with female characters who are less sexualized.  My problem comes from the implication that sexualized female characters are inherently sinful problematic and have to go.

Sure, but that's not exactly the point I was addressing.

Me neither, actually. Sexualized design can be done in a non-degrading way, Bayonetta's certainly really close to a good way to do a sexy female character. There's a difference between a sexy character design and a sexually objectifying character design.

Also, I'm tired of having people say "you have a problem with this oversexualized design? you're a prude who hates sex!". Again, doesn't work that way, and the oversimplification makes me want to break things.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6911 on: September 09, 2015, 11:16:10 am »
Speaking as just one lesbian, and a high percentage of lesbians are in fact gamers, I can say that overly sexualized female characters are amusing at best. I'd rather look at a fit female with realistic skills. Model a Ronda Rousey morph as a female action game lead, and you're onto something that will have vastly greater appeal to more gamers, including the horny teenage boy trope that some game designers seem have solely in mind. For the best examples to mirror in male leads, think female counterparts to leads ranging from the Prince of Persia to Sam Fisher.







Maybe game designers with poor taste like having jiggly eye candy as playable characters because they have to look at them for thousands of hours during production? If it's marketing departments or senior producers who are keeping the status quo, then they apparently ignore half or more of the game buying public.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6912 on: September 09, 2015, 02:53:41 pm »
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Define "consistently".  What about Jade from Beyond Good and Evil?  Or Joanna Dark?  Or numerous Bioware characters?

Consistently =/= EVERY GAME EBER. Consistently = this happens often enough to be a trend.

Exactly.  It's not universal.  I'll get back to that later.

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Then pray tell, how exactly does it work?

Criticizing a design is not the same as criticizing a real person. The women from DoA, to have an example, aren't real. They aren't dressing sexily because they want to, like real-life women are, they're dressing sexily because they were designed as softcore porn.

Funny you should mention Dead or Alive.  See, most of the female characters are sexualized characters, but they're sexualized characters, not sexualized characters (DoAX notwithstanding).  Some to a greater degree than others, to be sure, but none of them are nearly as bad as the cringeworthy depiction of women in Ride to Hell: Retribution.

And that's why there's no point in crying misogyny when oversexualized female design is criticized.

Obviously, not all criticism of sexualized female characters is misogynistic.  But this honestly strikes me as such.  Comparing women with big breasts to blackface caricatures is dehumanizing.

Moreover, there are busty women who actually want women with bigger breasts in games, because it makes them feel represented:

https://twitter.com/alison_prime/status/624419644804366336

"Be quiet, honey.  Men are talking about how oppressed you are."

Oh, I have no problem with female characters who are less sexualized.  My problem comes from the implication that sexualized female characters are inherently sinful problematic and have to go.

Sure, but that's not exactly the point I was addressing.

Me neither, actually. Sexualized design can be done in a non-degrading way, Bayonetta's certainly really close to a good way to do a sexy female character. There's a difference between a sexy character design and a sexually objectifying character design.

Oh, I definitely agree.  There are good ways to sexualize, and bad ways to sexualize.

Also, I'm tired of having people say "you have a problem with this oversexualized design? you're a prude who hates sex!". Again, doesn't work that way, and the oversimplification makes me want to break things.

I agree, that's not necessarily the case.  There are some perfectly valid reasons to criticize oversexualized women in video games.  The problem, however, comes from wanting them removed altogether, like this jackass.  And he's not just some neckbeard with a Facebook account, he's the founder of the IGDA.  This is extremely disconcerting.

Speaking as just one lesbian, and a high percentage of lesbians are in fact gamers, I can say that overly sexualized female characters are amusing at best.



Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly valid, but you can't claim to speak for all female gamers, or even all lesbian gamers.

I'd rather look at a fit female with realistic skills. Model a Ronda Rousey morph as a female action game lead, and you're onto something that will have vastly greater appeal to more gamers, including the horny teenage boy trope that some game designers seem have solely in mind.

Totally with you on this one.  I wouldn't mind seeing more body type diversity in gaming.

Maybe game designers with poor taste like having jiggly eye candy as playable characters because they have to look at them for thousands of hours during production? If it's marketing departments or senior producers who are keeping the status quo, then they apparently ignore half or more of the game buying public.

Here's my question, though: why doesn't the gaming press talk about female characters who fit their standards?  Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, but to me, it seems like these "culture critics" are always bitching and moaning about Tifa, or Lara, or somebody else.  You'd think they would want to talk about games that "get it right", so to speak.  Why don't we hear more about Aegis Defenders?  Or Dark Storm?  That's like if movie critics complained about the lack of explosions in romantic comedies, but never once mentioned films like The Expendables.  Either they're horribly ignorant, or they're deliberately avoiding mentioning games that don't fit their narrative.

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6913 on: September 09, 2015, 03:04:12 pm »
Quote from: UP
Obviously, not all criticism of sexualized female characters is misogynistic.  But this honestly strikes me as such.  Comparing women with big breasts to blackface caricatures is dehumanizing.

Moreover, there are busty women who actually want women with bigger breasts in games, because it makes them feel represented:

https://twitter.com/alison_prime/status/624419644804366336

"Be quiet, honey.  Men are talking about how oppressed you are."

...okay? That's real neat for those women, and their experiences and feelings on the matter are still valid, I've never questioned this. Wanting to see yourself in fiction is completely legit.

But. And here's the kicker. That doesn't make the opinion of women who do have a problem with oversexualized female character designs any less valid. It doesn't work that way. It's not matter and antimatter.

"Be quiet, honey.  Men are talking about how oppressed you are."

Or maybe I've been listening to women who do have a problem with the way their gender is commonly represented in games. (But yeah, this guy can eat a pile of shit for comparing the issue to antiblack racism in the US. Both serious problems, but only the latter has actually gotten people killed and literally goddamn enslaved.)

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #6914 on: September 09, 2015, 03:10:17 pm »
Quote from: UP
Obviously, not all criticism of sexualized female characters is misogynistic.  But this honestly strikes me as such.  Comparing women with big breasts to blackface caricatures is dehumanizing.

Moreover, there are busty women who actually want women with bigger breasts in games, because it makes them feel represented:

https://twitter.com/alison_prime/status/624419644804366336

"Be quiet, honey.  Men are talking about how oppressed you are."

...okay? That's real neat for those women, and their experiences and feelings on the matter are still valid, I've never questioned this. Wanting to see yourself in fiction is completely legit.

But. And here's the kicker. That doesn't make the opinion of women who do have a problem with oversexualized female character designs any less valid. It doesn't work that way. It's not matter and antimatter.

Oh, of course not.  I never said it did.

"Be quiet, honey.  Men are talking about how oppressed you are."

Or maybe I've been listening to women who do have a problem with the way their gender is commonly represented in games. (But yeah, this guy can eat a pile of shit for comparing the issue to antiblack racism in the US. Both serious problems, but only the latter has actually gotten people killed and literally goddamn enslaved.)

Agreed wholeheartedly.