Worst of Social Justice

[Murdin]

*yawn* Once again, I am apparently supposed to get outraged over the fact that a bunch of nobodies are getting outraged (more like slightly miffed, really) over something stupid. Some people really want to turn this topic into "dem dirty libruls being WRONG on the internet"... well, more than it already is.

You.  You fanatics are the "some reason". 

A passive-aggressive remark about an actress refusing to explicitly associate with her in-group? How could she! FANATICS! FANATICS I SAY!

Fact is, the main reason people don't want to call themselves feminists is because they don't want to be associated with people like this:

I had to search for this person we're all evidently supposed to know already, and suffice to say, I am not surprised. She's some obscure SJW jackass who apparently lost her cool while "debating" a bunch of MRA trolls and crossed the line on camera. As a result, she got viciously harassed by UP's friends bad people with no link whatsoever with the circles he frequents. As usual, we're apparently supposed to 1) give a fuck, 2) vaguely recognize that harassment is wrong but not care too much about it, and 3) collectively tut-tut at her.

Edit: just in case, "UP's friends" is intended to be every bit as much of an exaggeration as "bad people with no link etc.". No offense intended... on that particular point.

I mean, that woman was quite clearly defending rape paranoia and male suicide as intellectual positions, and anyone who doesn't go out of their way to lapidate her as the epitome of Everything That Is Wrong With Feminism is evidently a misandrist. Stay classy, UP.

If you want more people to call themselves "feminists," then condemn these extremists for what they are.

And you should keep up the good work on your self-awareness, as well.


Since I'm... probably not going to post again in the next month or so, here's one last thing: anyone who reads this response and comes to the conclusion that I am "siding" with anyone, has my deepest pity.

Or maybe she is a humanist.

She's got a good number of years under her belt watching the world evolve and hasn't exactly been kicked in the teeth for the crime of having a uterus so the idea that she is more of an egalitarian really isn't that far fetched.

This doesn't exactly fit with what she's saying about equal pay and decision-making in the film industry, though. One can hope she's one of those people who DOESN'T hold to the "egalitarian" label as an excuse to is-ought-fallacy away any actual example of gender inequality (one way or the other) that she personally finds too inconvenient to admit. *wink wink nudge nudge*

[Even Then]

Someone actually acknowledges that a large chunk of "humanists"
and "egalitarians" sweep actual inequalities under the rug by claiming everyone's already socially equal?

...where have you been all my life?

[Ultimate Paragon]

Someone actually acknowledges that a large chunk of "humanists" sweep actual inequalities under the rug by claiming everyone's already socially equal?

...where have you been all my life?

On the other hand, there are all kinds of identity politics types who like to exaggerate their own oppression, while downplaying that of other groups (as if there's only so much oppression to go around).  Feminists, MRAs, religious groups, ethnic nationalists, etc.  All of them have some of these assholes.

What's needed is to look at things in an objective manner, examine all the evidence, and find the truth.

[davedan]

That was a nice sidestep to avoid the absolute arse deliverance that Murdin just made of you UP.

[niam2023]

That was a nice sidestep to avoid the absolute arse deliverance that Murdin just made of you UP.

He never addresses such things. Not when he could try to deliver another attempted call out of "identity politics."

[ironbite]

And you all fall for it every single fucking time.

Ironbite-it's adorable at this point.

[davedan]

Well he does that in this thread because he likes this thread. In other threads where it gets too hard he simply goes silent and drops out of the thread.

But to the point of being a feminist, I know when I think of Feminism I don't think of suffragettes, Virginia Woolf, Steinem, Greer, equal pay or domestic violence, I think of a shrill red haired woman on the internet...

[Ultimate Paragon]

I chose Big Red not because she's particularly important, but because she's distinctive-looking and obnoxious.  Moreover, she was involved in a particular protest against an MRA meeting.  Normally, I wouldn't even mention that, but at this particular protest, somebody pulled the fire alarm:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWgslugtDow" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWgslugtDow</a>

Now, I'm not saying that she was the one who pulled it.  But her reaction to the alarm being sounded, and the fact that she chose to associate with these people, speaks volumes about her.



Did I mention she's a hypocrite too?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVuK44kWgxk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVuK44kWgxk</a>

Of course, not all feminists are like her.  I'd actually say that only a minority of feminists are like her. 

By the way, Dave, I'm talking about feminism in the here and now.  Otherwise, I'd have used a picture of Valerie Solanas or Andrea Dworkin.

[davedan]

You aren't talking about feminism though, you are talking about a particular woman. Not even one who is considered to be a leader of the movement. You are somehow linking her with both Meryl Streep and the writer of the Guardian Article.

How do you draw the link. Have Meryl Streep or the Guardian writer ever considered her? As for the outrage industry, you sound just as outraged as them if not more so.

Moreover you can be a feminist and a humanist. Finally once again why do we care what actors think. They are professional parrots. They are paid to say things in a way which is believable but they are not their ideas.

Talking about feminism in the here and now:

I am a feminist.
I believe that women should have the same voting rights as men.
I believe that women should have the same employment opportunities as men.
I believe that women should be paid the same amount for the same work as men.
I believe that women should have the same status before the law as men.
I believe that like men, women are people.

If you believe those same things you also are a feminist.

Also I see you are still shying away from responding to Murdin's spectacular spanking of your position.

[Ultimate Paragon]

You aren't talking about feminism though, you are talking about a particular woman. Not even one who is considered to be a leader of the movement. You are somehow linking her with both Meryl Streep and the writer of the Guardian Article.

No, I'm not.  I'm saying she's part of feminism's PR problem.

How do you draw the link. Have Meryl Streep or the Guardian writer ever considered her? As for the outrage industry, you sound just as outraged as them if not more so.

Yeah, I got a little emotional there.

Moreover you can be a feminist and a humanist. Finally once again why do we care what actors think. They are professional parrots. They are paid to say things in a way which is believable but they are not their ideas.

Well, these people care.  I personally don't care so much about her personal positions (so long as they're not hateful or insane), I was merely responding to them.

Talking about feminism in the here and now:

I am a feminist.
I believe that women should have the same voting rights as men.
I believe that women should have the same employment opportunities as men.
I believe that women should be paid the same amount for the same work as men.
I believe that women should have the same status before the law as men.
I believe that like men, women are people.

If you believe those same things you also are a feminist.

Yes, I am a feminist, but not for the reasons you claim.  I think there are areas where women are discriminated against, and that these inequalities should be corrected.  But does that make me a feminist?  I don't think so.  What makes me a feminist is my belief in female advancement, and the fact that I call myself one.  In my opinion, these are the two things necessary for somebody to be a feminist.  There are certain feminists who claim that feminism is not about equality, but about female superiority.  By your definition, these people aren't "feminists."

Also I see you are still shying away from responding to Murdin's spectacular spanking of your position.

No, I'm not.  I addressed his positions.

[davedan]

Also I see you are still shying away from responding to Murdin's spectacular spanking of your position.

No, I'm not.  I addressed his positions.

Really? where?

[Ultimate Paragon]

Also I see you are still shying away from responding to Murdin's spectacular spanking of your position.

No, I'm not.  I addressed his positions.

Really? where?

When I talked about why I chose a picture of Big Red.

[davedan]

Well that is pretty shit even by your standards mate.

It didn't address Murdin's point. It doesn't address the point as to why Meryl Streep or the Guardian writer should know or give a fuck about her. She's hardly the face of feminism.

Also I watched that video and I think there is a big difference between turning up at a Gay Pride parade and telling them they are going to hell and turning up to a rally and presenting the opposing view.  - EDIT: The former is like turning up to a church and pissing in the communion wine, the latter is not.

I'm still pondering why I should give a fuck about this person - can you refer me to any of her published works?

[Ultimate Paragon]

Well that is pretty shit even by your standards mate.

It didn't address Murdin's point. It doesn't address the point as to why Meryl Streep or the Guardian writer should know or give a fuck about her. She's hardly the face of feminism.

Also I watched that video and I think there is a big difference between turning up at a Gay Pride parade and telling them they are going to hell and turning up to a rally and presenting the opposing view.  - EDIT: The former is like turning up to a church and pissing in the communion wine, the latter is not.

I'm still pondering why I should give a fuck about this person - can you refer me to any of her published works?

You probably shouldn't, I just used her as an example.

[davedan]

If we shouldn't care about her than how can she possibly be the example that  you wanted to make? Why try to draw some tenuous link between her and Meryl Streep, on one occasion, not immediately affirming that she's a feminist.

There is as much relevance as trying to draw a link between that red haired woman and Beyonce Knowles declaring that she's a feminist.

By the way - each of the things I mentioned are central to feminism. Is there one of them you don't agree with?