Worst of Social Justice

[Svata]

And now he's copying Vox Day's arguments, right down to the demonizing male sexuality thing.

Has anyone seen Vox and UP in the same room?

[The_Queen]

Fine, that wording is a misleading way to state "men need consent education more than women do because society has had (and still occasionally does have) a problem with making men think they're entitled to having sex with women". But the idea is still valid. And your M&M complaint is a false equivalency because 1) men as a social class have insitutionally brought down women and men still have social privilege over women in several aspects and 2) Jews, black people, Muslims and gay people don't have systemic privilege (at least in the West).

Tangentially related, but have any of you ever encountered a gay incel?

I will concede partially to Paragon (hurls) and say I feel it should just be "teach people not to rape"

My problem with this is that it devoids the purpose of the statement from its context. Yes, rape of anyone is wrong and morally reprehensible. But, rape is primarily a crime committed by men against women. There is a rape culture in which rapists are given the benefit of every doubt and women are perceived as lying sluts. Speaking from my own experience of being trans, I have lost count how many times I have heard men behind closed doors make rape jokes. The same cannot be said for females.

And I feel that the real problem with divorcing rape from its context is that it allows society to say "rape is wrong" as opposed to taking a look at the underlying cause of rape, which is a patriarchal society that teaches men to be the "aggressive hunter" and to get the girl, sometimes without her consent.

None of this is to say that women cannot rape men, simply to say that it isn't the epidemic that men raping women is. Further, the one thing that has been conveniently absent in these discussions is that most male rape is done by other men, which further highlights that the problem of rape is due to men. Not anything innate to men, that would be silly, but how men are conditioned relative to women.

The fact that people think education can help shows it's not something inherent in men but rather a problem of conditioning.

A valid point, but that does not undermine the notion that making the focus on "people not committing rape" as opposed to "men not committing rape" serves as a tacit erasure of the fact that rape is primarily a crime committed by men against women.

[mellenORL]

See, that's how UP applies egalitarianism; dilution is the solution. Needs to change his name to Abrogating Apologist.

[davedan]

Fine, that wording is a misleading way to state "men need consent education more than women do because society has had (and still occasionally does have) a problem with making men think they're entitled to having sex with women". But the idea is still valid. And your M&M complaint is a false equivalency because 1) men as a social class have insitutionally brought down women and men still have social privilege over women in several aspects and 2) Jews, black people, Muslims and gay people don't have systemic privilege (at least in the West).

Tangentially related, but have any of you ever encountered a gay incel?

I will concede partially to Paragon (hurls) and say I feel it should just be "teach people not to rape"

My problem with this is that it devoids the purpose of the statement from its context. Yes, rape of anyone is wrong and morally reprehensible. But, rape is primarily a crime committed by men against women. There is a rape culture in which rapists are given the benefit of every doubt and women are perceived as lying sluts. Speaking from my own experience of being trans, I have lost count how many times I have heard men behind closed doors make rape jokes. The same cannot be said for females.

And I feel that the real problem with divorcing rape from its context is that it allows society to say "rape is wrong" as opposed to taking a look at the underlying cause of rape, which is a patriarchal society that teaches men to be the "aggressive hunter" and to get the girl, sometimes without her consent.

None of this is to say that women cannot rape men, simply to say that it isn't the epidemic that men raping women is. Further, the one thing that has been conveniently absent in these discussions is that most male rape is done by other men, which further highlights that the problem of rape is due to men. Not anything innate to men, that would be silly, but how men are conditioned relative to women.

The fact that people think education can help shows it's not something inherent in men but rather a problem of conditioning.

A valid point, but that does not undermine the notion that making the focus on "people not committing rape" as opposed to "men not committing rape" serves as a tacit erasure of the fact that rape is primarily a crime committed by men against women.

I agree. I was just addressing the point that it somehow involves demonisation of what is inherently male rather than how men have been conditioned to behave. Being told not to rape people shouldnt be a challenge to your masculinity.

[The_Queen]

Ah, now I see. Well spoken, young cracker.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Fine, that wording is a misleading way to state "men need consent education more than women do because society has had (and still occasionally does have) a problem with making men think they're entitled to having sex with women". But the idea is still valid. And your M&M complaint is a false equivalency because 1) men as a social class have insitutionally brought down women and men still have social privilege over women in several aspects and 2) Jews, black people, Muslims and gay people don't have systemic privilege (at least in the West).

Tangentially related, but have any of you ever encountered a gay incel?

I will concede partially to Paragon (hurls) and say I feel it should just be "teach people not to rape"

My problem with this is that it devoids the purpose of the statement from its context. Yes, rape of anyone is wrong and morally reprehensible. But, rape is primarily a crime committed by men against women.

Well, according to the national crime victimization survey, 38% of rape victims are male.

There is a rape culture in which rapists are given the benefit of every doubt and women are perceived as lying sluts.

Then why were Tawana Brawley, Crystal Mangum, and Emma Sulkowicz so readily believed?  Hell, why does this Wikipedia category even exist?

Speaking from my own experience of being trans, I have lost count how many times I have heard men behind closed doors make rape jokes. The same cannot be said for females.

Anecdotal evidence.

And I feel that the real problem with divorcing rape from its context is that it allows society to say "rape is wrong" as opposed to taking a look at the underlying cause of rape, which is a patriarchal society that teaches men to be the "aggressive hunter" and to get the girl, sometimes without her consent.

If that were the cause of rape, you'd think rates of rape would be higher.  However, according to this DoJ report, only 1.1 per 1,000 women suffered rape attempts.  It's true that there are unreported rape cases, but according to RAINN, 68% of rapes go unreported.  That's a big and worrying percentage, but considering how small the raw numbers are, it doesn't inflate the statistics too much.

[davedan]

Well that wikipedia page is so much more scary than this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States.

Your crime victimisation survey didn't open. Although I personally find it hard to believe that 38% of rape victims are men. Even so out of those 38% how many of the perpetrators were men?

[Ultimate Paragon]

Well that wikipedia page is so much more scary than this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States.

Your crime victimisation survey didn't open. Although I personally find it hard to believe that 38% of rape victims are men. Even so out of those 38% how many of the perpetrators were men?

Huh.  Didn't know there were that few known cases.

But here's the thing: false rape accusations can have horrible consequences, even if the accused isn't convicted.

And if you want some information, here you go.

[davedan]

From the article:

"Now the question is, in a climate when politicians and the media are finally paying attention to military and campus sexual assault, should these new findings alter our national conversation about rape? Stemple is a longtime feminist who fully understands that men have historically used sexual violence to subjugate women and that in most countries they still do. As she sees it, feminism has fought long and hard to fight rape myths—that if a woman gets raped it’s somehow her fault, that she welcomed it in some way. But the same conversation needs to happen for men. By portraying sexual violence against men as aberrant, we prevent justice and compound the shame. And the conversation about men doesn’t need to shut down the one about women. “Compassion,” she says, “is not a finite resource.”

So it's feminism that is fighting for both male and female rape victims.

[Ultimate Paragon]

From the article:

"Now the question is, in a climate when politicians and the media are finally paying attention to military and campus sexual assault, should these new findings alter our national conversation about rape? Stemple is a longtime feminist who fully understands that men have historically used sexual violence to subjugate women and that in most countries they still do. As she sees it, feminism has fought long and hard to fight rape myths—that if a woman gets raped it’s somehow her fault, that she welcomed it in some way. But the same conversation needs to happen for men. By portraying sexual violence against men as aberrant, we prevent justice and compound the shame. And the conversation about men doesn’t need to shut down the one about women. “Compassion,” she says, “is not a finite resource.”

So it's feminism that is fighting for both male and female rape victims.

Good!

[Cataclysm]

Well that wikipedia page is so much more scary than this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States.

Your crime victimisation survey didn't open. Although I personally find it hard to believe that 38% of rape victims are men. Even so out of those 38% how many of the perpetrators were men?

The majority of people who sexually assult men are women (~80% IIRC. On the other side, over 90% of people who sexually assault women are men)

The big issue was that until 2012 the FBI'S definition of rape didn't include men, and the current definition excludes a lot of male victims by having rape defined as being forcefully penetrated, when the majority of female-on-male rape is forcing men to penetrated them, greatly reducing the number rof men recorded as rape victims in statistics.

[Sigmaleph]

Well that wikipedia page is so much more scary than this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States.

Your crime victimisation survey didn't open. Although I personally find it hard to believe that 38% of rape victims are men. Even so out of those 38% how many of the perpetrators were men?

About half, apparently. From a Salon article about the NCVS, which also mentions the 38% figure:

A recent analysis of BJS data, for example, turned up that 46 percent of male victims reported a female perpetrator.

If true, this is much closer to gender parity than I expected. I'm having trouble getting the numbers from the NCVS data, I'll try to remember to give it another go later today.

[Eiki-mun]

So THAT's what incel stands for!

[Ultimate Paragon]

While it may not happen to whites as often (AFAIK, anyway), it does happen.  For example, there was a white teenager in Georgia who got shot because the cops mistook his Wii Remote for a gun:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/georgia-teen-holding-wii-remote-shot-cops-front-door-family-lawyer-article-1.1619842

Besides, this movie was set (and indeed, made) before trigger-happy cops became commonplace.

[Even Then]

But the movie can still remind of the institutional racism in the US despite the time of its making, no?