Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 1547918 times)

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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8400 on: March 16, 2016, 03:45:39 am »
Without context I can't know for sure, but this sounds an awful lot like "I'm allowed to be an asshole, but you can't pick on me because I'm special."

Fuck that noise, if you can't swim stay out of the pool.
Where was that implied?

"I don't care what it is we did..."
There's a difference between "picking on someone" and "intentionally driving someone to suicide and/or giving someone a severe panic attack."

Edit: I'll put it this way: should Sig allow me to threaten to rape and murder someone if they annoy me enough?

Fuck you, you fucking fuck. I hope your dog runs away and your cat barfs on the carpet.
Your criticisms are triggering me. STOP IT.


Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8401 on: March 16, 2016, 07:39:38 am »
Without context I can't know for sure, but this sounds an awful lot like "I'm allowed to be an asshole, but you can't pick on me because I'm special."

Fuck that noise, if you can't swim stay out of the pool.
Where was that implied?

"I don't care what it is we did..."
There's a difference between "picking on someone" and "intentionally driving someone to suicide and/or giving someone a severe panic attack."

Edit: I'll put it this way: should Sig allow me to threaten to rape and murder someone if they annoy me enough?

Fuck you, you fucking fuck. I hope your dog runs away and your cat barfs on the carpet.
Your criticisms are triggering me. STOP IT.
But did the fucking fucking fucks cause the dog to flee and the cat to barf? That's the real question!

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8402 on: March 18, 2016, 11:35:40 am »
Without context I can't know for sure, but this sounds an awful lot like "I'm allowed to be an asshole, but you can't pick on me because I'm special."

Fuck that noise, if you can't swim stay out of the pool.
Where was that implied?

"I don't care what it is we did..."
There's a difference between "picking on someone" and "intentionally driving someone to suicide and/or giving someone a severe panic attack."

Edit: I'll put it this way: should Sig allow me to threaten to rape and murder someone if they annoy me enough?

Fuck you, you fucking fuck. I hope your dog runs away and your cat barfs on the carpet.
Your criticisms are triggering me. STOP IT.
1. You have not told me about this before and so I could not have "triggered" you intentionally
2. Being criticized is not anyone's trigger, so your strawman fails in that regard.
3. The post was talking about triggering someone when they are actually triggered by something and you know it, not whatever KiA strawman you have in your head

Also, do you consider that a nerotypical person might also overreact as well?
This blog post was presented as an example of the worst of SJ, and because it was in here and not somewhere else I tried to cast a critical eye on it to see how it could be 'bad.' There is only one way I could think of that would make this a bad example -- using it as a shield and excuse. Devoid of any context and supporting evidence it's a call you can only make a hypothetical way, but if  that unsupported hypothesis is correct then fuck that guy for doing it.

I also showed in the blog where, for me at least, you could come to that conclusion since it was absolving him/her of responsibility for their actions.

Then I want all smart-ass and showed how it could be abused.

And that brings us to here. Frankly, without any evidence one way or another about this blog, I think you're right. To try and look at it in a negative light, particularly after the point you bring up and having reread it, is disingenuous. You correctly point out that you could not have knowingly triggered me in my example, and that deliberateness of action is the key to whether or not the blog post is good or not at face value. The blogger writes "if you were considering" (full confession, I missed that part the first time around) and so is talking about a willful action on the triggerer's part and not carte blanche protection from consequences. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. Granted, it can still be abused if somebody wanted to, but it becomes very hard to level any criticism at the post itself.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8403 on: March 18, 2016, 12:02:12 pm »
Re: the rape discussion

tl;dr: The examples are not directly comparable since the contexts and ideas they express are different despite superficially similar statements.

The offensiveness is not in the form of the statement but in the idea behind it. "Teach men not to rape" is not an optimally constructed statement* but the context is different from the similar statements about blacks and Muslims. The stereotypes of blacks as criminals and Muslims as terrorists actually exist and those examples are based on and strengthen these stereotypes. Men as rapists is something only an extreme radical wing of feminism sees as a real stereotype.

The idea behind "teaching men not to rape" it is that we need to change the culture that leads to some men not taking the idea of consent seriously enough and justifies their actions. The only case where it promotes an actual stereotype is when someone who belongs to the aforementioned wing of feminism uses it. The crime statistics among African Americans and the terrorism among Muslims have more complicated causal relationships behind them and a constructive approach can't really be simplified into such a statement.

[rambling]

Actually, when I think about it more carefully, one big issue separating these examples is power. (Yes, I went there but hear me out before judging.) Rape is about subjugating the victim and the perpetrator is the one who has more power. The one who has more power in the context is the one who we need to put pressure on. Muslim terrorism is a reaction of an underdog to a political and societal issues** and the crime among African Americans is a result of economical and social circumstances.

"Teach muslims not to commit terrorism" and "teach blacks not to steal" don't have identical contexts either. Depending on the particular context in which someone uses the statement the former can actually be interpreted as an extremely flawed way of simplifying an idea worth considering. For example, the issue with power is more complicated: factions within the Muslim world hold a lot more power and carry more responsibility of terrorism than is the case when discussing African Americans and crime.

[/rambling]

* While I don't think the superficial interpretation of the flawed statement as too generalizing is a major problem there is the issue that women also commit rapes.

** Religion is naturally interwoven with these factors

Disclaimer: There are other dimensions of rape that fall outside this discussion such as its use as a weapon against civilian population.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8404 on: March 18, 2016, 01:06:58 pm »
Er... wrong thread, SCarpelan.
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Offline Ironchew

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8405 on: March 18, 2016, 01:47:14 pm »
No, he's posting in the right thread.

There are a distressing number of posters on here who use WoSJ as an instrument to push their anti-SJ views. Smacking them down is needed from time to time.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8406 on: March 18, 2016, 02:20:00 pm »
Yeah, my comment was meant for the Not good things people say thread. Sorry about that. The threads' topics are very similar and I didn't pay attention enough.

Edit: I was first thinking of removing the post but Ironchew is right. Due to the more enthusiastic "SJWs" occasionally taking good ideas absurdly far and/or misinterpreting them people can be too eager to interpret all things brought up by the Social Justice movement in the most negative light possible. If my post serves as an example of this it serves some purpose here.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 02:28:22 pm by SCarpelan »

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8407 on: March 19, 2016, 09:41:00 am »
Without context I can't know for sure, but this sounds an awful lot like "I'm allowed to be an asshole, but you can't pick on me because I'm special."

Fuck that noise, if you can't swim stay out of the pool.
Where was that implied?

"I don't care what it is we did..."
There's a difference between "picking on someone" and "intentionally driving someone to suicide and/or giving someone a severe panic attack."

Edit: I'll put it this way: should Sig allow me to threaten to rape and murder someone if they annoy me enough?

Fuck you, you fucking fuck. I hope your dog runs away and your cat barfs on the carpet.
Your criticisms are triggering me. STOP IT.
1. You have not told me about this before and so I could not have "triggered" you intentionally
2. Being criticized is not anyone's trigger, so your strawman fails in that regard.
3. The post was talking about triggering someone when they are actually triggered by something and you know it, not whatever KiA strawman you have in your head

Also, do you consider that a nerotypical person might also overreact as well?
This blog post was presented as an example of the worst of SJ, and because it was in here and not somewhere else I tried to cast a critical eye on it to see how it could be 'bad.' There is only one way I could think of that would make this a bad example -- using it as a shield and excuse. Devoid of any context and supporting evidence it's a call you can only make a hypothetical way, but if  that unsupported hypothesis is correct then fuck that guy for doing it.

I also showed in the blog where, for me at least, you could come to that conclusion since it was absolving him/her of responsibility for their actions.

Then I want all smart-ass and showed how it could be abused.

And that brings us to here. Frankly, without any evidence one way or another about this blog, I think you're right. To try and look at it in a negative light, particularly after the point you bring up and having reread it, is disingenuous. You correctly point out that you could not have knowingly triggered me in my example, and that deliberateness of action is the key to whether or not the blog post is good or not at face value. The blogger writes "if you were considering" (full confession, I missed that part the first time around) and so is talking about a willful action on the triggerer's part and not carte blanche protection from consequences. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. Granted, it can still be abused if somebody wanted to, but it becomes very hard to level any criticism at the post itself.
Oh, okay.

Could we fight about it anyway?

Only if make-up sex will be involved.

Offline Søren

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8408 on: March 19, 2016, 06:36:09 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3BjUvjOUMc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3BjUvjOUMc</a>

I don't even know if I'd call this bad.  It's just really really silly.

And since when were Emoji's gendered?  That's new to me.

If your daughter is depressed by a lack of representative emojis, you've seriously failed as a parent.
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8409 on: March 20, 2016, 03:56:59 pm »
Reducing being LGBT to sex only and likening it to a kink that one willingly partakes in?

it is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the straights are at it again

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8410 on: March 20, 2016, 04:11:55 pm »
Reducing being LGBT to sex only and likening it to a kink that one willingly partakes in?

it is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the straights are at it again

To be fair, that's better than a kink that one unwillingly partakes in.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8411 on: March 20, 2016, 04:21:35 pm »
To be fair, practitioners of BDSM are quite heavily stigmatized should their proclivity be outed.  That said, its nowhere near as bad as LGBT got it.  Still, though, got fuckers thinkin you're unbalanced if you like a little kinky sex, which is all kinda of messed up.
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8412 on: March 20, 2016, 04:43:18 pm »
Sure, one's kink preferences (as long as they're consensual, of course) shouldn't be used as a marker of one's moral character. To be fairer, though, liking it weird does not a non-hetero make; BDSM enthusiasts wanting to horn in on a group defined by being marginalized by cisheteronormativity because waah waah we want to be in that club toooo makes me legitimately angry.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8413 on: March 21, 2016, 10:39:24 am »
Creative participatory practices or inherent sexual kinks are important to be aware of, especially if people get discriminated against because of them, but they are not the primary reason for LGBTQ rights activism, which is to redress major civil rights abuses. This is kind of a bandwagon leap, but unless discussion of sexual practices begins really obscuring or over-shadowing the dialog about civil rights and societal education about rights, it's probably not worth getting too angry about. There is a lot of internet out there. Room enough for discussing the main issues, and helping people to understand that some "taboo" activities really are not at all like what they were taught to fear.
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #8414 on: March 21, 2016, 11:20:09 am »
To clarify: I have no problem with BDSM practitioners discussing the social ramifications of being into d/s or what have you. Intrinsically, that is A-OK. It's when wider LGBT discourse,  another beast altogether, is dragged into it that I start rubbing my forehead.

also finding it kinda hard to believe that BDSM is marginalized on a wider scale in a world where 50 Shades became a smash hit but idk