FSTDT Forums
Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: Stormwarden on February 17, 2012, 12:05:05 am
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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/mormon_explainer_1/2012/02/mormons_baptize_wiesenthals_is_there_a_way_to_stop_baptism_by_proxy_.html
Looks like the LDS went and baptized the 'rents of famous Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal, and also got in hot water for trying the same with a Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel, never mind that the latter is STILL ALIVE. Both were holocaust victims, btw, who are OFF LIMITS.
It looks like this shit keeps happening because it doesn't occur to the LDS to keep a national "do not baptize" registry. There was an agreement made by the LDS and the Jewish community not to do that. It takes a certain level of stupidity to think that it's okay to do shit like this.
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Thought that after they tried this with Obama's mother they were told to stop it.
Ironbite-guess I was wrong!
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It looks like this shit keeps happening because it doesn't occur to the LDS to keep a national "do not baptize" registry.
Or because they appear to be constitutionally incapable of exhibiting any actual concern for ethics.
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Wait, did they actually try to baptize Elie Wiesel?
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(http://memeorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/wait-what-meme-rage-face.jpg)
Will these people ever learn?
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Meshakhad: Yes, yes they did. The church put a stop to it when they realized, but I do believe the damage has been done.
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Idiots and assholes.
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When I saw the topic I got this Bon Voyage feeling, like I've been here before. And now that I read the article, yes we did have this same topic before about the holocaust victims being baptized.
Why do they even do this? Is it some weird gotta cath em all thing? Are they going to start claiming that LDS were persecuted by nazies? If so then why did they also convert Adolf Hitler to LDS? (According to wikipedia, although the source appears to be unreliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#cite_note-47 )
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When I saw the topic I got this Bon Voyage feeling, like I've been here before. And now that I read the article, yes we did have this same topic before about the holocaust victims being baptized.
Why do they even do this? Is it some weird gotta cath em all thing? Are they going to start claiming that LDS were persecuted by nazies? If so then why did they also convert Adolf Hitler to LDS? (According to wikipedia, although the source appears to be unreliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#cite_note-47 )
I think you mean "deja vu". "Bon Voyage" means "good journey".
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When I saw the topic I got this Bon Voyage feeling, like I've been here before. And now that I read the article, yes we did have this same topic before about the holocaust victims being baptized.
Why do they even do this? Is it some weird gotta cath em all thing? Are they going to start claiming that LDS were persecuted by nazies? If so then why did they also convert Adolf Hitler to LDS? (According to wikipedia, although the source appears to be unreliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#cite_note-47 )
I think you mean "deja vu". "Bon Voyage" means "good journey".
Well there was a 50/60 chance of me being right.
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They've been warned before. And they've said they'd stop. But, apparently, none of that really matters to them.
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Why do they even do this?
It is all part of a last ditch effort to save the person’s soul, of course!
Mormons believe posthumous baptism by proxy allows deceased persons to receive the Gospel in the afterlife. The church believes departed souls can then accept or reject the baptismal rites and contends the offerings are not intended to offend anyone.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/mormons-apologize-for-proxy-posthumous-baptism-of-jewish-rights-advocate-wiesenthals-family/2012/02/14/gIQAf8WpDR_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/mormons-apologize-for-proxy-posthumous-baptism-of-jewish-rights-advocate-wiesenthals-family/2012/02/14/gIQAf8WpDR_story.html)
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Why do they even do this?
It is all part of a last ditch effort to save the person’s soul, of course!
Mormons believe posthumous baptism by proxy allows deceased persons to receive the Gospel in the afterlife. The church believes departed souls can then accept or reject the baptismal rites and contends the offerings are not intended to offend anyone.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/mormons-apologize-for-proxy-posthumous-baptism-of-jewish-rights-advocate-wiesenthals-family/2012/02/14/gIQAf8WpDR_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/mormons-apologize-for-proxy-posthumous-baptism-of-jewish-rights-advocate-wiesenthals-family/2012/02/14/gIQAf8WpDR_story.html)
The real question is: why the fuck do people care in the first place? If you don't believe the same as the Mormons do, then it doesn't matter what they do. If you do believe the same as they do, then you are likely not complaining about it.
Is it disrespectful? Yep. Is Mormon leadership filled with assholes and attention whores? By and large yes.
It should be noted that they aren't physically assaulting people, these are baptisms by proxy.
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What Bezron says. Who in his right mind pays attention to this meaningless nonsense?
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It's an asshole move, yeah, but it's a waste to spend so much energy on something that has no affect on anything whatsoever, because it isn't real.
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Why waste so much money on funerals in the first place? Why not just throw the guy in a ditch & let the wilderness sort him out?
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The real question is: why the fuck do people care in the first place?
They honestly believe that they are helping your soul along in the afterlife. To them, it is an act of compassion, just as sure as any act that save actual lives here and now.
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I hate when this happens. Mitt Romney did it to his father in law
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They've been warned before. And they've said they'd stop. But, apparently, none of that really matters to them.
These baptism lists are compiled by individual members, not by any of the higher-ups. It's not fair to blame the church as a whole.
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And if I was a higher-up, that would be just what I'd claim, even as I implied that this is what the peons should be doing.
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Really, I don't see the point of getting all huffy over it. Even the Mormons only believe that the baptisms give the dead the option of accepting. I mean... no one gets offended when someone offers a prayer to the dead, even is of a different faith. How is it any different?
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Really, I don't see the point of getting all huffy over it. Even the Mormons only believe that the baptisms give the dead the option of accepting. I mean... no one gets offended when someone offers a prayer to the dead, even is of a different faith. How is it any different?
Baptizing someone is an act that takes them into the faith they are baptized under. It's laying claim to someone, making them a member of the religious community, and thus heavily implying that the baptized individual accepts as valid the tenants of the church under which they are baptized. To do this to someone who is dead, who cannot consent to nor nay-say their actions, is to white-wash the deceased person's personal beliefs - and thus to some extent, their identity - into something more compliant with what the church would prefer. It's horribly disrespectful and thoroughly tasteless.
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Really, I don't see the point of getting all huffy over it. Even the Mormons only believe that the baptisms give the dead the option of accepting. I mean... no one gets offended when someone offers a prayer to the dead, even is of a different faith. How is it any different?
Well I guess the difference is that the Mormons were actually listing the deceaced as mormons. They had records saying that these dead people had converted to Mormonism after their death.
So even if they claim that the dead are merely given an option they still claim that they had in fact accepted and are now mormons. This is taking advantage of people who have no way to defend themselves. (Well other than coming back from the dead to claim their revenge...)
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What I just don't understand is why people are questioning why people who obviously value symbolic gestures are offended at mere symbolic gestures.
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I know that if I became noteworthy in some way, I'd hate to have my final rest disturbed so my bones can be dunked in water just so some Mormon ... priest? Whatever the equivalent is... can get their spiritual rocks off. It's bullshit.
Well, obviously I couldn't hate it. I'd be dead. But you know.
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I know that if I became noteworthy in some way, I'd hate to have my final rest disturbed so my bones can be dunked in water just so some Mormon ... priest? Whatever the equivalent is... can get their spiritual rocks off. It's bullshit.
Well, obviously I couldn't hate it. I'd be dead. But you know.
Uh... the baptisms are done by proxy. As in, a Mormon individual acts as a stand-in for the ceremony. They're not digging up corpses and dunking them in a tub of water.
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Ohhhhhhhh.........
Okay, that's less horrific than I thought at first read.
Still mightily disrespectful, though.
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I thought they just kind of threw it on the tombstone.
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I thought they just kind of threw it on the tombstone.
I'm picturing a bunch of Mormons running down the rows of a graveyards, flinging holy water at all the gravestones while they sing the theme to Pokémon. ;D
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I thought they just kind of threw it on the tombstone.
I'm picturing a bunch of Mormons running down the rows of a graveyards, flinging holy water at all the gravestones while they sing the theme to Pokémon. ;D
Gotta catch 'em all!
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THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
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Baptizing post-mortem? Two can play at this game. (http://alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com/)
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This is relevant: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/mormons-posthumous-baptism-anne-frank_n_1292102.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009
They're baptizing Anne Frank. Again. I'm sorry, but how much of a douchebag do you have to be to do that? And WHY WOULD YOU?
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Wait...again!? AGAIN!?
Ironbite-seriously, the hubris of these people.
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Why is this even necessary? Why can't their God just give dead people the choice?
I mean, from what I heard their God isn't omnipotent, but really?
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This is relevant: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/mormons-posthumous-baptism-anne-frank_n_1292102.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009
They're baptizing Anne Frank. Again. I'm sorry, but how much of a douchebag do you have to be to do that? And WHY WOULD YOU?
Somewhere, a higher-up in the Mormon Church is trolololololing.
If you can be saved after your death, then what's the point of converting to Mormonism in the first place? Theoretically as long as there's one Mormon alive he could do salvationations for all the rest of us.
Yes, I just said "salvationations."
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This is relevant: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/mormons-posthumous-baptism-anne-frank_n_1292102.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009
They're baptizing Anne Frank. Again. I'm sorry, but how much of a douchebag do you have to be to do that? And WHY WOULD YOU?
Anne Frank was murdered
She was murdered because she was Jewish
She was murdered by people who hated Jews
Those people hated Jews because of a nearly two thousand year old prejudice that stated that Jews were lesser than Christians
These people justified their beliefs because according to their scripture, Jews go to hell unless they convert to Christianity, i.e.: be baptized
Throughout history, this involved forced baptisms of Jews, most notably during the Spanish Inquisition
The Mormons just forcibly converted Anne Frank
Because they believe that unless they did so, she would go to hell
Because they believe that Jews go to hell when they die
Which is the belief which led to Anne Frank’s murder
Did I miss anything? (stole the list from tumblr as it was a lot less swear-y than mine)
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This is relevant: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/mormons-posthumous-baptism-anne-frank_n_1292102.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009
They're baptizing Anne Frank. Again. I'm sorry, but how much of a douchebag do you have to be to do that? And WHY WOULD YOU?
Anne Frank was murdered
She was murdered because she was Jewish
She was murdered by people who hated Jews
Those people hated Jews because of a nearly two thousand year old prejudice that stated that Jews were lesser than Christians
These people justified their beliefs because according to their scripture, Jews go to hell unless they convert to Christianity, i.e.: be baptized
Throughout history, this involved forced baptisms of Jews, most notably during the Spanish Inquisition
The Mormons just forcibly converted Anne Frank
Because they believe that unless they did so, she would go to hell
Because they believe that Jews go to hell when they die
Which is the belief which led to Anne Frank’s murder
Did I miss anything? (stole the list from tumblr as it was a lot less swear-y than mine)
Well, technically she died of disease (I want to say cholera but I don't remember exactly) in the concentration camp, instead of being directly murdered, but since the Nazis intended to kill everyone in the camps anyway, that's sort of a moot point.