Author Topic: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law  (Read 52582 times)

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Offline Lithp

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #195 on: February 21, 2012, 07:17:12 pm »
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As not to derail this thread I will respond here http://forums.fstdt.net/flame-and-burn/re-nickerson-lithp-fight/15/

Hahahano. As far as I can tell, calling the procedure rape still falls under the purview of this topic. Ergo, I will continue to make my arguments here. As stated before, if you don't like it, you can go do something else.

That said, I think my argument pretty much speaks for itself. You can have your own opinions & suppositions, but I'm going with the data.

I followed along and posted in that topic, though why I - who have not flamed him, and posted an actual rebuttal of his points as pertaining to the topic - was singled out for moving to the F&B thread is beyond me.

I don't know what you want me to do about it. Or what you're talking about, for that matter. Did I think you were Nickerson? That's weird.

Edit: Nope, I was quoting Nickerson.

Offline Smurfette Principle

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #196 on: February 21, 2012, 07:22:26 pm »
No, the original "I will take this to the other thread" was originally directed at me. So I responded with a "yeah, I'm not moving either" sort of thing.

Offline Lithp

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #197 on: February 21, 2012, 08:01:35 pm »
I thought he was talking to me. I didn't click the link.

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #198 on: February 22, 2012, 01:30:12 am »
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/22/jon-stewart-virginia-ultrasound-law-a-tsa-pat-down-inside-your-vagina/

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Since most abortions are performed in the first trimester, when the fetus is too small to be viewed by an abdominal ultrasound, the ultrasound image would need to be captured by inserting a probe into the vagina.

Noting that women are not required to actually view the ultrasound, Stewart said “Virginia could have forced you to watch the image like in the dystopian classic A Clockwork Orange.”

“But instead, they are just going to be coming at you with a giant phallic object — like in A Clockwork Orange.”

After playing a clip of Virginia Gov. Bob McConnell (R) saying that TSA pat-down infringed Americans’ civil liberties, Stewart explained that for women the bill McConnell was about to sign was “like a TSA pat-down inside their vagina.”

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Offline Damen

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #199 on: February 22, 2012, 02:03:02 am »
Even the TSA isn't that invasive...

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Offline StallChaser

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #200 on: February 22, 2012, 08:27:55 am »
Legal technicalities hardly matter for such a fucked up situation.  I'd still call it rape.

Is the only difference in the landlord situation really that the woman didn't "do something" to get that treatment?  Let's say the landlord made a policy that women had to be penetrated by an inanimate object* before any maintenance could be done on her apartment, she unknowingly or unwillingly agreed to it because she needed housing, and a pipe burst.  This is what led up to the previous scenario.  Would it now be "not rape"?  How about if the state made such a law, with its convenient higher threshold for what's considered coercion?

Direct question to Nickerson or erictheblue, whoever answers first.


*we can even make the penetration a "bona fide medical procedure", just not one that is in any way relevant to the situation.

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #201 on: February 22, 2012, 08:51:27 am »
Really?

Have sex with me or I'll inconvenience you.. by firing you, or with holding your promotion, or by damaging your property

Not rape?

I said that those situations are more than an inconvenience in the last part of my post.
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #202 on: February 22, 2012, 09:02:21 am »
Legal technicalities hardly matter for such a fucked up situation.  I'd still call it rape.

Is the only difference in the landlord situation really that the woman didn't "do something" to get that treatment?  Let's say the landlord made a policy that women had to be penetrated by an inanimate object* before any maintenance could be done on her apartment, she unknowingly or unwillingly agreed to it because she needed housing, and a pipe burst.  This is what led up to the previous scenario.  Would it now be "not rape"?  How about if the state made such a law, with its convenient higher threshold for what's considered coercion?

Direct question to Nickerson or erictheblue, whoever answers first.


*we can even make the penetration a "bona fide medical procedure", just not one that is in any way relevant to the situation.

In the case of the landlord no, not rape if the woman knows about that stipulation before hand.  Of course that stipulation would be sexual harassment and most likely not even be legal, but it would not be rape. 

For the state, that is a lot closer.  The difference is that everyone needs housing so it is not an option to rent from a different landlord.

-so are we all just going to continue this discussion here or the new thread?
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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #203 on: February 22, 2012, 10:01:10 am »
Nickerson, normally I defend people for sticking up for their beliefs or such around here. But that last post is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read. Rape or not, that landlord would be a dead man in my book regardless of contracts signed.

That said, the lot of folks need to take this argument with Nickerson into the other thread. And I'll probably be joining in from the looks of things.

Offline Podkayne

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #204 on: February 22, 2012, 10:43:36 am »
Really?

Have sex with me or I'll inconvenience you.. by firing you, or with holding your promotion, or by damaging your property

Not rape?

I said that those situations are more than an inconvenience in the last part of my post.
Ok, so who gets to make that particular distinction? When is something an inconvenience, when is it more than an inconvenience?

And, on topic, how do you tell which category a unnecesary intra vaginal ultra sound falls in?
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Offline sandman

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #205 on: February 22, 2012, 03:02:30 pm »
He backed off on the legislation.

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #206 on: February 22, 2012, 03:05:18 pm »
FUCK YEAH.

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #207 on: February 22, 2012, 03:28:52 pm »
He backed off on the legislation.

clicky

I'm not so sure about that.  The story indicates the Governor saying...

"Thus, having looked at the current proposal, I believe there is no need to direct by statute that further invasive ultrasound procedures be done. Mandating an invasive procedure in order to give informed consent is not a proper role for the state. No person should be directed to undergo an invasive procedure by the state, without their consent, as a precondition to another medical procedure.

For this reason, I have recommended to the General Assembly a series of amendments to this bill. I am requesting that the General Assembly amend this bill to explicitly state that no woman in Virginia will have to undergo a transvaginal ultrasound involuntarily. I am asking the General Assembly to state in this legislation that only a transabdominal, or external, ultrasound will be required to satisfy the requirements to determine gestational age. Should a doctor determine that another form of ultrasound may be necessary to provide the necessary images and information that will be an issue for the doctor and the patient. The government will have no role in that medical decision."

Yet here is a link to the bill itself...

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?121+ful+SB484S2


No where in the bill do I see that it requires a transvaginal ultrasound.  I thought from the beginning that was the case and the issue was that before 9 weeks transvaginal ultrasounds were need to measure gestational age.  So when the Governor say that they should not be required "unless a doctor determine that another form of ultrasound may be necessary to provide the necessary images and information that will be an issue for the doctor and the patient" I don't see how that changes anything.
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Offline erictheblue

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Re: Legally required invasive procedure and Medical Scarlet letter Law
« Reply #209 on: February 22, 2012, 10:30:30 pm »
For me, I don't know whether to call this actual, physical rape so much as I would call it "rape of the soul."

That's a good description. I've been thinking of it as "rape-like." It isn't legally rape, but it is still crappy.

This law is simply bullshit. The entire purpose is to drive women away, and let's face it... it's based on Christian doctrine. Nobody wants to admit it because it's unconstitutional, but the entire reason they're doing this crap is because they think Jeezus wants them to.

I've been thinking about the constitutionality of this law for a few days, and I am really not sure how a court would rule. I suspect it would come down to whether the challenge was done as a prima facia challenge, or done as-applied.

Abortion (as part of the fundamental right to privacy) requires a strict scrutiny analysis. This means limiting access to abortion would require (1) a compelling governmental interest, and (2) the law be narrowly tailored to meet that compelling governmental interest.

If challenged prima facia, I fear the law would pass constitutional muster. Analysis would not get to strict scrutiny because (on the face), there is no restriction of the fundamental right. Virginia is not telling women they cannot have an abortion. The law only says a procedure must be done before the abortion can be carried out. Once the procedure is done, she can have the abortion. No restriction --> No constitutional issue.

If challenged as-applied, and the ones challenging the law can show that the law kept women from getting abortions, it would flunk constitutional muster. (Getting the evidence to show the laws effect would take time, but could be done.) The only possible compelling governmental interest (and it is a weak one) is health and safety. ("We're making sure women are healthy enough to have the abortion" or something like that...) Given how weak that argument is, I doubt any court would find there is a compelling governmental interest. Even if that was sufficient, it clearly flunks narrow tailoring, as it requires all women to undergo the procedure, regardless of the woman's overall health. (It is "over inclusive.")

It's also possible it could be challenged under the Fourth Amendment. ("The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated...") Although a lot of that challenge comes down to whether it is legally a "search" and whether the doctor was acting as an agent of the state. And there is also the issue of consent (as consent makes a search automatically reasonable).

Neither is a vasectomy... do you think that argument will make people ok about being told they need one?

I have no idea, but apparently it isn't a big deal around here. There's several giant billboards for a surgeon who does scalpel-free vasectomies on a main road between here and Gainsville. A few years ago in DC, a surgeon was offering a special right before the Super Bowl - a lower price and a bag of frozen peas! :)

Legal technicalities hardly matter for such a fucked up situation.  I'd still call it rape.

You can call it whatever you want. Legally, it does not rise to the level of the definition of rape in VA. That doesn't mean it isn't invasive or creepy.

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Is the only difference in the landlord situation really that the woman didn't "do something" to get that treatment?

No. The primary difference is the effect of the choice. A woman is free to walk out of the medical facility and there is no consequence to her. (Please note that courts do not consider continuing pregnancy to be consequence.) If, by chance, there was a situation where there would be a dangerous consequence (i.e. she has a medical condition that would cause continued pregnancy to threaten her life), that could be a basis for an as-applied challenge. (See above.)

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How about if the state made such a law, with its convenient higher threshold for what's considered coercion?

See my above discussion regarding constitutional challenges. Such a law would likely be seen as a conflict of the Fourth Amendment. It would clearly flunk compelling governmental interest and narrow tailoring.
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