First Trump came for Portland

[Vanto]

1. You know, that's actually a good question. I don't know how you would report it, but I can look it up for you if you'd like.

2. No, I don't. But could you please stop the personal attacks?

In other words: You're arguing on baseless grounds. You can just fucking admit that you're wrong.

3. Antifa may not have the hierarchies typically associated with organizations, but that doesn't mean they're not organized. They have uniforms, flags, social media accounts, handbooks, and merchandise. Maybe they're not a single, unitary organization, but there hasn't been a unified Klan since the 40s. They are defined by more than just opposition to fascism.

4. Well, unless they make it possible to hold individual members accountable, they will inevitably be considered collectively responsible. Especially if said individual members can't be identified.

5. Maybe so they don't get singled out for attack?

Yeah, I'm not going to bother responding to the rest. You've already admitted that you can't back up half of your claims. You're not arguing in good faith. I am under no obligation to waste my time with you, so I won't.

Rude.

[Skybison]

Direct question

How many people have been killed by antifas or rioters?  Because I really, really don't see how the problem was bad enough to warrant this sort of reaction.

[Vanto]

Direct question

How many people have been killed by antifas or rioters?  Because I really, really don't see how the problem was bad enough to warrant this sort of reaction.

At least 22 by my count. But it's not just the death toll that's the problem. It's also the injuries, the ruin to livelihoods, the attacks on federal property.

And what, specifically, do you think is so terrible about this reaction? If they were being shipped off to Gitmo or some black site, I'd agree with you, but they're not.

[Skybison]

Direct question

How many people have been killed by antifas or rioters?  Because I really, really don't see how the problem was bad enough to warrant this sort of reaction.

At least 22 by my count.

Can you site your sources?

And to turn your own words back, what makes you think that all of these were unjustified?

[Vanto]

Direct question

How many people have been killed by antifas or rioters?  Because I really, really don't see how the problem was bad enough to warrant this sort of reaction.

At least 22 by my count.

Can you site your sources?

And to turn your own words back, what makes you think that all of these were unjustified?

I looked at Wikipedia (which lists 30 deaths in the riots) and removed the killings done by police, those that were clear cases of self-defense, and those that were self-inflicted.

And let's take a look at the individual cases:

Minneapolis, May 28: Man found burned to death in pawn shop arson. Obviously unjustified.

Detroit, May 29: Man killed when his car was shot up. Obviously unjustified.

Oakland, May 29: David Patrick Underwood killed in a drive-by shooting. Obviously unjustified.

St. Louis, May 30: Barry Perkins run over by FedEx truck fleeing looters. Probably an accident.

Indianapolis, May 31: Dorian Murell shot by man claiming self-defense. Possibly unjustified.

Indianapolis, May 31: Chris Beaty fatally shot in unspecified circumstances. Possibly unjustified.

Kansas City, May 31: Marvin Francois shot while picking up one of his sons from a protest. Obviously unjustified.

Chicago, May 31: John Tiggs fatally shot while entering a building to pay a bill. Obviously unjustified.

Riverside, May 31: Myqwon Blanchard shot during a looting. Obviously unjustified.

Davenport, June 1: Italia Marie Kelly killed in random shooting. Obviously unjustified.

Cicero, June 1: Two innocent bystanders shot by "outside agitators". Obviously unjustified.

St. Louis, June 2: David Dorn shot and killed by pawn shop looters. Obviously unjustified.

Bakersfield, June 3: Robert Forbes hit by a vehicle. Possible accident.

Seattle, June 20: 19-year-old man shot in CHAZ. Obviously unjustified.

Louisville, June 27: Photographer shot at Jefferson Square Park. Obviously unjustified.

Seattle, June 29: 16-year-old boy shot by CHAZ security forces. Obviously unjustified.

Seattle, July 4: Summer Taylor hit by a vehicle while protesting on Interstate 5. Possible accident.

Atlanta, July 4: Secoriea Turner, an 8-year-old girl, shot by an unknown suspect. Obviously unjustified.

Indianapolis, July 5: Jessica Doty Whitaker shot after walking away from an argument. Obviously unjustified.

Austin, July 25: Garret Foster killed in unclear incident. Possibly unjustified.

So, out of 22 people killed, 14 were obviously wrongly killed. That's almost 2/3.

Now, let's compare that to the number of unarmed black men shot and killed by cops in 2020. According to the Washington Post's police shootings database, of the 549 people shot by police this year, only seven were unarmed black men. Even broadening that to unarmed people in general, there were only 26. That's less than 5%. And keep in mind, the police had a head start, seeing as the protests didn't begin until May 26.

[ironbite]

You got absolute proof that it was "antifa" who did this?  An organization who only exisits in the paranoid delusions of a man ultra-unqualified of the job he now finds himself in.

Ironbite-cause all I see is you saying over and over and over again these are all unclear incidents.

[dpareja]

A licence plate is something that is large, pretty standarized in design and position, and (unless the government's trying to save money) visible on the back of a fleeing vehicle so long as it's fleeing.

A uniform patch is only really visible from certain directions and angles, often blends in with the rest of the uniform (such as in the posted picture), and will not necessarily be noticed by someone who doesn't know to look for it, and where to look for it (which stands in contrast to licence plates since "note the licence plate number" is a pretty basic part of road safety). That's the crux of my point, and you didn't address it: if it's even noticed at all.

And as noted, it doesn't do much good to get pictures of these thugs if they're stealing personal property when it's used in an attempt to hold them accountable.

[SomeApe]

Where can I get one of these Antifa uniforms?

[Vanto]

You got absolute proof that it was "antifa" who did this?  An organization who only exisits in the paranoid delusions of a man ultra-unqualified of the job he now finds himself in.

Ironbite-cause all I see is you saying over and over and over again these are all unclear incidents.

I never said it was Antifa that was killing people. Sky asked this:

How many people have been killed by antifas or rioters?

A licence plate is something that is large, pretty standarized in design and position, and (unless the government's trying to save money) visible on the back of a fleeing vehicle so long as it's fleeing.

A uniform patch is only really visible from certain directions and angles, often blends in with the rest of the uniform (such as in the posted picture), and will not necessarily be noticed by someone who doesn't know to look for it, and where to look for it (which stands in contrast to licence plates since "note the licence plate number" is a pretty basic part of road safety). That's the crux of my point, and you didn't address it: if it's even noticed at all.

And as noted, it doesn't do much good to get pictures of these thugs if they're stealing personal property when it's used in an attempt to hold them accountable.

Oh, so now we've gone from "they're not identified" to "their identification is too hard to read". Maybe that's a valid criticism, but if this is a problem, it's one that predates these riots by some time.

And are you talking about that time a cop in Portland threw someone's phone at a window? I thought that guy was a local, not a fed.

Where can I get one of these Antifa uniforms?

Probably the same places where you can buy their merchandise.

[SCarpelan]

I can respect someone who is in the political center because their ideology and values position them where the center happens currently to be. I have zero respect for someone who actively measures where center is and makes sure their current position is always within that range. Vanto would literally try to defend the Nazi death camps from leftist criticism in the name of balance if he was in WWII Germany.

Edit: And would probably do the same for Stalin's Gulags in Soviet Union. It's after all the recognised authorities doing it so they must know what they are doing.

[dpareja]

Oh, so now we've gone from "they're not identified" to "their identification is too hard to read". Maybe that's a valid criticism, but if this is a problem, it's one that predates these riots by some time.

And are you talking about that time a cop in Portland threw someone's phone at a window? I thought that guy was a local, not a fed.

As I noted: there is no effective difference between "no identification" and "can't see the identification".

As for this being an ongoing problem, yes, it is. And if you're trying to defend it on those grounds, I can only refer you to Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" for why the appeal to tradition is stupid.

On the last point, whether it was a local or a fed, it doesn't much matter; the tactic is used to discourage people from attempting to hold law enforcement accountable for their brutality.

[davedan]

So how many of the deaths were from 'Rioters'. You only identified deaths caused during the riots. The information there isn't enough to say that the killers were participating in the riots or were in response to the riots. The only ones that definitively fit your scope are the ones caused by the CHAZ security teams.

Also The Week (that famous leftwing mouthpiece) appear to think it's fascism : https://theweek.com/articles/927661/why-trumps-invasion-portland-textbook-fascism

[SCarpelan]

Trump - or at least his administration - has graduated from proto-fascism to actual fascism. He is not just laying the ideological ground for a future fascist regime but is putting the ideology in action. Almost all of Umberto Eco's definitions hit the mark.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. [MAGA! Bring back the 50's!]

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. ...  The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.

4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. ...Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. [The liberal elite / the jews]

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy.

10.  Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party.

11.  In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. [Worship of military and the veterans.]

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons – doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. ... Because of its qualitative populism Ur-Fascism must be against "rotten" parliamentary governments. ...  Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 1984, as the official language of Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.

It's noteworthy that there are aspects that are part of the American political discourse even before Trump. Specially the worship of the military and the heroism cult around it is scary looking at it from the outside. There are aspects that are promoted as parts of every national identity (again, something to think about) but how extreme forms are normalised in American context is worrying when there is the might of a superpower in play.

[davedan]

How dare you suggest that Vanto's opinion isn't as worthy as the writings of some dead Italian. You're probably some sort of pansy who doesn't support teargassing and beating vandals or the people nearby vandals.

[DarkPhoenix]

You know, for someone who is trying to be "balanced", it's awful funny that Vanto's arguments are the same ones being made by the far-right wackos who are cheerleading for Trump's fascist takeover.

But since you are, Vanto, I'm going to throw a simple question at you that I wanted to ask them, but know I won't get a straight answer for; if all the protesters are rioters, and all the rioters are trying to burn things down, how is there still a City of Portland for the Feds to be "defending"?