Best Political Cartoons

[Lt. Fred]

The easy solution is strong trade unions with a lot of institutional power. If an employer tries to sack a trade union member for being one, jail

And the difference is... what, exactly?

If you give a union too much power, how do you stop it from basically becoming another hierarchy with a "CEO" that hoards all of the money and leverages power to basically "fire" any dissidents?

It's pretty silly to treat a trade union like a corporation. Whenever you're talking about trade unions replace the word with workers. It's trivially easy to legislate rules that make unions authentically representative bodies of their constituent membership.

The easy solution is strong trade unions workers with a lot of institutional power. If an employer tries to sack a trade union member for being one workers for exercising control over their place of employment, jail

Corporations exist to serve the financial interests of their membership. Unions should be more than that.

[Witchyjoshy]

There's a difference between "should be" and "is".

There are abusive unions out there.  Some are almost as abusive as corporations.  Let's not kid ourselves here.

[Lt. Fred]

There's a difference between "should be" and "is".

There are abusive unions out there.  Some are almost as abusive as corporations.  Let's not kid ourselves here.

Like I said, it's trivially easy to design legislation that would make unions an authentic representative body. Even in the current system they're pretty good, nowhere near as bad as even the least corrupt corporation.

[R. U. Sirius]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQfGTDyjVSE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQfGTDyjVSE</a>

Not sure if this is actually relevant to the discussion, but I found it apropos.

[Witchyjoshy]

There's a difference between "should be" and "is".

There are abusive unions out there.  Some are almost as abusive as corporations.  Let's not kid ourselves here.

Like I said, it's trivially easy to design legislation that would make unions an authentic representative body. Even in the current system they're pretty good, nowhere near as bad as even the least corrupt corporation.

It would also be trivially easy to design loopholes.

[Lt. Fred]

There's a difference between "should be" and "is".

There are abusive unions out there.  Some are almost as abusive as corporations.  Let's not kid ourselves here.

Like I said, it's trivially easy to design legislation that would make unions an authentic representative body. Even in the current system they're pretty good, nowhere near as bad as even the least corrupt corporation.

It would also be trivially easy to design loopholes.

Crap. You create a federated system, ala Germany, where local shop-floor trade unions elect state-wide or national representatives. Elect, mind; you have weekly, paid meetings at the shop-floor level. Paid by the employer. Anyone can come, even non-members. You would have approximately 100% attendance. If you think this is pie in the sky, this is the system currently operating today right now in Germany today right now. National representatives change annually, with a term limit. All representatives must be from the shop floor. So, teacher union reps have to be teachers. For a year they stop being a teacher and are instead a rep.

Most local decisions are made by all members. The boss can't make any serious decision without union assent.

If you think this is pie in the sky, once more - this has been operating in Germany for decades. Decades. And Sweden. And Denmark.

Your cynicism is as mis-placed as it is useless.

[mellenORL]

The cynicism is based on decades of the anti-union rhetoric of plutocratic pols and pundits being blared loudly about in the U.S. main stream media. Unions=Corruption and Socializms! Commiez! has become an ingrained cultural/political backdrop "fact".

Other than a few high profile cases of union leadership corruption brought to light back in the sixties and seventies, unions back then and now have been remarkably low-key, and corporate directors traditionally saw them as a type of partner in labor efficiency management. They do, indeed, strongly express an authoritarian corporate mentality in regards to their worker members because of using full time professional reps. Not surprising. Very unfortunate, compared to the European modus.

The European labor unions have such deep, strong cultural roots in the ancient tradition of guilds, and are so common, appreciated, and well-understood by the general population, that most pols would never dare suggest outright dismantling any of them, or demonize trade unions in general as they do with impunity here.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Well, where there's smoke, there's fire.  The ties between labor unions and organized crime cannot be ignored.  This isn't just an American thing, either.  It's happened in France, Italy, and Japan as well.

And besides, measures must be taken to prevent tyranny of the majority.

[mellenORL]

What about the otherwise unchecked tyranny of the Corporation? Corrupt corporations and corrupt unions - both exist, but that does not mean that either or both institutions should therefor all be destroyed. Organized crime runs on a corporate mentality - hence the term, "organized". Quite a few corporations are ruthless to the point of blatant criminality, but because of their social standing, the corrupt officers are nearly never brought to justice. Fuck, they just graduate to politics! Look at Gov. Rick Scott for the perfect example. This multi-billion dollar CEO fraudster should be in the cell next to Bernie Madoff, instead, he just got re-elected the Governor of Florida, where he can and does impact the lives and well-being of 20,000,000 people.

[Ultimate Paragon]

What about the otherwise unchecked tyranny of the Corporation? Corrupt corporations and corrupt unions - both exist, but that does not means that either or both institutions should therefor all be destroyed. Organized crime runs on a corporate mentality - hence the term, "organized". Quite a few corporations are ruthless to the point of blatant criminality, but because of their social standing, the corrupt officers are nearly never brought to justice. Fuck, they just graduate to politics! Look at Gov. Rick Scott for the perfect example. This multi-billion dollar CEO fraudster should be in the cell next to Bernie Madoff, instead, he just got re-elected the Governor of Florida, where he can and does impact the lives and well-being of 20,000,000 people.

I never suggested dismantling unions.  And I agree, crooked businesspeople get away with far too much.

[Ironchew]

There's a difference between "should be" and "is".

There are abusive unions out there.  Some are almost as abusive as corporations.  Let's not kid ourselves here.

I would need some data behind that assertion. Raw numbers of the aggregate political power of all abusive unions versus the political power of all corporations. My guess is it's no contest; large corporations get 99% of what they want and all the bitching about unions is a leftover from vast amounts of anti-union propaganda.

And besides, measures must be taken to prevent tyranny of the majority.

Do you seriously believe corporations have ever suffered under the "tyranny of the majority" at any time in the United States? Ours is their plutocracy.

[I am lizard]

Well, where there's smoke, there's fire.  The ties between labor unions and organized crime cannot be ignored. 

Forgive my ignorance, but what ties to organized crime?

[Witchyjoshy]

There's a difference between "should be" and "is".

There are abusive unions out there.  Some are almost as abusive as corporations.  Let's not kid ourselves here.

I would need some data behind that assertion. Raw numbers of the aggregate political power of all abusive unions versus the political power of all corporations. My guess is it's no contest; large corporations get 99% of what they want and all the bitching about unions is a leftover from vast amounts of anti-union propaganda.

Oh, it's no contest that corporations have a shit ton more power than unions do.  So I'm not sure why you think you're contradicting me there.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Well, where there's smoke, there's fire.  The ties between labor unions and organized crime cannot be ignored. 

Forgive my ignorance, but what ties to organized crime?

Jimmy Hoffa is a good example.

[Lt. Fred]

Well, where there's smoke, there's fire.  The ties between labor unions and organized crime cannot be ignored.  This isn't just an American thing, either.  It's happened in France, Italy, and Japan as well.

And besides, measures must be taken to prevent tyranny of the majority.

What about the tyranny of the minority?