In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole

[TheL]

1.  As an Italian-American, I know for a fact that immigration quotas were used against my family (dad, aunt, uncle, and grandparents are off-the-boat Italians) as recently as 1952.  That's not the 19th century.

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 completely overhauled the previous immigration law system.

Granted, but that's at the federal level.  At the state level, there are TONS of horrendous immigration laws being passed all the time.

2. Look up "sundown towns."  Very common in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Black people and Chinese-Americans weren't allowed within city limits after the sun went down--effectively ensuring that only WASPs lived in those particular towns.

I'm familiar with that, and it has little to do with the topic of this thread.  That was more a product of Jim Crow than anything else.

Er...you brought up immigration and the treatment of immigrants.  Chinese-Americans were, in fact, immigrants.  Legal ones.  Also, Jim Crow laws were in the South.  This shit happened up North.

My overarching point is that I don't think any country should be obligated to admit anyone (save possibly for refugees), and the immigration and social policies of one country aren't necessarily appropriate for all.  I can't help but notice that most of the people responding to this thread haven't really answered that point.

I honestly don't see why people who want to change their home country shouldn't be allowed to do so.  Nor am I sure what changing immigration policies will do about people who have already emigrated.

[Bezron]

Er...you brought up immigration and the treatment of immigrants.  Chinese-Americans were, in fact, immigrants.  Legal ones.  Also, Jim Crow laws were in the South.  This shit happened up North.

Jim Crow laws happened in the North too, mostly in more rural areas.

[Lt. Fred]

But from a sociological and political standpoint, assimilationism and multiculturalism are two quite different things.

Let's stop using these terms, because I don't agree with your definitions of them.

The former implies minorities/newcomers being introduced into a group (sometimes forcibly, but hopefully not), the latter implies multiple cultures side-by-side in the same country (e.g. the example of India that I gave before).

So the distinction being the existence of a primary culture everyone has to agree with? Which India doesn't have?

[Fpqxz]

But from a sociological and political standpoint, assimilationism and multiculturalism are two quite different things.

Let's stop using these terms, because I don't agree with your definitions of them.

They aren't my definitions.

The former implies minorities/newcomers being introduced into a group (sometimes forcibly, but hopefully not), the latter implies multiple cultures side-by-side in the same country (e.g. the example of India that I gave before).

So the distinction being the existence of a primary culture everyone has to agree with? Which India doesn't have?

In the latter there can be a majority and minority culture, with separate cultural & linguistic rights, and all that that entails.  No two countries have the same approach on this.

I admit that this stuff is kind of hard to pin down, but there are differences in the two approaches.

[RavynousHunter]

... Wow, the antagonism in here is... explodes from the antagonism in here

Okay, I'm going to let this thread continue on, but seriously, you guys need to quit flaming.

I don't care about the he/she said bullshit. Keep it up and I will just issue a 24-hr post-ban.

Also, considering promoting Zachski to moderator. :u

Umm, you realize that's going to piss a LOT of people off, right?  Or, did you forget with people being leery when new mods were made after the Naps snafu?

[ironbite]

How is Zach a bad choice for mod anyways?

Ironbite-the Nap thing was something completely different

[Art Vandelay]

How is Zach a bad choice for mod anyways?

If I may be completely honest. Being a mod requires a more unemotional approach to things, especially when a rather heated argument crops up and emotions are for the most part running rather high. From what I've seen over the years, keeping his emotions under control in such a situation is not exactly his forte.

Now, I'm not saying this because I have a problem with Zach himself. I've got nothing against him as a person. This just seems like another Shanegate waiting to happen.

[Shane for Wax]

Really?

We're going to go down this road?

[Witchyjoshy]

How is Zach a bad choice for mod anyways?

If I may be completely honest. Being a mod requires a more unemotional approach to things, especially when a rather heated argument crops up and emotions are for the most part running rather high. From what I've seen over the years, keeping his emotions under control in such a situation is not exactly his forte.

Your concerns and criticisms are valid, and I thank you for addressing them.

That being said, I've never been under any real pressure before to keep my emotions in check.  So this is a good experience for me in that regard.

And as I'm still very new, I'm going to be deferring to more experienced moderators and admins anyways, until I'm more experienced with what needs to be done and, more importantly, what doesn't need to be done.

There are rules in place for moderators.  If I violate those rules in the fit of passion, I will willingly step down.

[Lt. Fred]

In the latter there can be a majority and minority culture, with separate cultural & linguistic rights, and all that that entails.

I don't think forcible assimilation is acceptable. Certainly the government might reasonably encourage some sorts of assimilation- like language. But I don't think the government should be telling a group of people that their cultural practices- religion, culinary and so on- are wrong.

[Art Vandelay]

Your concerns and criticisms are valid, and I thank you for addressing them.

That being said, I've never been under any real pressure before to keep my emotions in check.  So this is a good experience for me in that regard.

And as I'm still very new, I'm going to be deferring to more experienced moderators and admins anyways, until I'm more experienced with what needs to be done and, more importantly, what doesn't need to be done.

There are rules in place for moderators.  If I violate those rules in the fit of passion, I will willingly step down.

S'cool, friend. Like anyone else, as long as you're aware of and can manage your own weaknesses, you should be fine. Hell, the fact that you didn't take what I said the wrong way, despite the fact that we often butt heads around here, says that there's no reason why you can't be a good mod.

[Fpqxz]

I don't think forcible assimilation is acceptable. Certainly the government might reasonably encourage some sorts of assimilation- like language. But I don't think the government should be telling a group of people that their cultural practices- religion, culinary and so on- are wrong.

Obviously, we can't force immigrants to change religions or prevent them from speaking their native language in certain contexts.  That would be a human rights violation, and in the USA it would be unconstitutional anyway.

But how far should we take the issue of allowing them to keep their own culture?  Are we to start making exceptions in our own laws for things like domestic violence (which is acceptable in some cultures)?  Should we legalize or refrain from prosecuting things like bride burning, acid throwing, and honor killings?

As far as I'm concerned, immigrants shouldn't be given a free pass on things that would be illegal in their destination countries just because those things might be acceptable in their home countries.

And BTW I have no problem with Zachski becoming a mod.

[Lt. Fred]

But how far should we take the issue of allowing them to keep their own culture?  Are we to start making exceptions in our own laws for things like domestic violence (which is acceptable in some cultures)?  Should we legalize or refrain from prosecuting things like bride burning, acid throwing, and honor killings?

Of course not. This is an absurd strawman.

[kefkaownsall]

But how far should we take the issue of allowing them to keep their own culture?  Are we to start making exceptions in our own laws for things like domestic violence (which is acceptable in some cultures)?  Should we legalize or refrain from prosecuting things like bride burning, acid throwing, and honor killings?

Of course not. This is an absurd strawman.

Yeah that is two steps above godwining.

[Witchyjoshy]

I have to agree with Fred on this, actually.

There's a difference between demanding that foreigners follow the laws of the country they're in (which is not just reasonable, but a necessary demand) and demanding that foreigners abandon their own culture entirely to be assimilated into your culture.