Author Topic: Good Things Religion has Done  (Read 42621 times)

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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #120 on: May 24, 2013, 06:58:20 pm »
And yet there isn't much proof he existed beyond the bible, and the Shroud of Turin is... sketchy at best.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #121 on: May 24, 2013, 07:57:18 pm »
but just about everybody agrees that he was a real person

Nope.  There's actually very little historical proof of his existence.

Just like there's very little historical proof that Christians were ever systematically oppressed by the Roman empire.  In fact, if anything, it was the opposite -- Christians could even hold office.

Quote
A lot of his messages are very good.

And a lot of his messages are very bad.  If anything, Jesus reads a lot like a compilation of the many prophets and messiahs of the age.
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Offline Dynamic Dragon

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #122 on: May 24, 2013, 08:27:25 pm »
How about Mohammed then?  We know he was a real person, and he did a lot of great things.
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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #123 on: May 24, 2013, 08:36:22 pm »
You may or may not believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah, but just about everybody agrees that he was a real person.
I wouldn't necessarily say that.

Offline Dynamic Dragon

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #124 on: May 24, 2013, 08:38:03 pm »
*snip*
Nope.  There's actually very little historical proof of his existence.

Just like there's very little historical proof that Christians were ever systematically oppressed by the Roman empire.  In fact, if anything, it was the opposite -- Christians could even hold office.

*snip*
I have yet to find any reliable historical resources that say either of those things.
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Offline Reality Warper

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2013, 09:05:50 pm »
*snip*
Nope.  There's actually very little historical proof of his existence.

Just like there's very little historical proof that Christians were ever systematically oppressed by the Roman empire.  In fact, if anything, it was the opposite -- Christians could even hold office.

*snip*
I have yet to find any reliable historical resources that say either of those things.
I can't find any either.  Besides, by that logic, Atilla the Hun wasn't a real person either.

Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2013, 09:10:09 pm »
How about Mohammed then?  We know he was a real person, and he did a lot of great things.

Yeah, since Allah allowed him to marry whomever he wants, he pretty much invented mormonism!

Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2013, 09:11:53 pm »
How about Mohammed then?  We know he was a real person, and he did a lot of great things.

Yeah, since Allah allowed him to marry whomever he wants, he pretty much invented mormonism!
Actually Joseph Smith considered himself the "new Muhammad", so funny you should mention that.

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2013, 09:23:40 pm »
Myth of Persecution by Candida Moss.

Quote
In The Myth of Persecution, Candida Moss, a leading expert on early Christianity, reveals how the early church exaggerated, invented, and forged stories of Christian martyrs and how the dangerous legacy of a martyrdom complex is employed today to silence dissent and galvanize a new generation of culture warriors.

According to cherished church tradition and popular belief, before the Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal in the fourth century, early Christians were systematically persecuted by a brutal Roman Empire intent on their destruction. As the story goes, vast numbers of believers were thrown to the lions, tortured, or burned alive because they refused to renounce Christ. These saints, Christianity's inspirational heroes, are still venerated today.

Moss, however, exposes that the "Age of Martyrs" is a fiction—there was no sustained 300-year-long effort by the Romans to persecute Christians. Instead, these stories were pious exaggerations; highly stylized rewritings of Jewish, Greek, and Roman noble death traditions; and even forgeries designed to marginalize heretics, inspire the faithful, and fund churches.

The traditional story of persecution is still taught in Sunday school classes, celebrated in sermons, and employed by church leaders, politicians, and media pundits who insist that Christians were—and always will be—persecuted by a hostile, secular world. While violence against Christians does occur in select parts of the world today, the rhetoric of persecution is both misleading and rooted in an inaccurate history of the early church. Moss urges modern Christians to abandon the conspiratorial assumption that the world is out to get Christians and, rather, embrace the consolation, moral instruction, and spiritual guidance that these martyrdom stories provide.
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Offline Dynamic Dragon

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2013, 09:26:16 pm »
Myth of Persecution by Candida Moss.

Quote
In The Myth of Persecution, Candida Moss, a leading expert on early Christianity, reveals how the early church exaggerated, invented, and forged stories of Christian martyrs and how the dangerous legacy of a martyrdom complex is employed today to silence dissent and galvanize a new generation of culture warriors.

According to cherished church tradition and popular belief, before the Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal in the fourth century, early Christians were systematically persecuted by a brutal Roman Empire intent on their destruction. As the story goes, vast numbers of believers were thrown to the lions, tortured, or burned alive because they refused to renounce Christ. These saints, Christianity's inspirational heroes, are still venerated today.

Moss, however, exposes that the "Age of Martyrs" is a fiction—there was no sustained 300-year-long effort by the Romans to persecute Christians. Instead, these stories were pious exaggerations; highly stylized rewritings of Jewish, Greek, and Roman noble death traditions; and even forgeries designed to marginalize heretics, inspire the faithful, and fund churches.

The traditional story of persecution is still taught in Sunday school classes, celebrated in sermons, and employed by church leaders, politicians, and media pundits who insist that Christians were—and always will be—persecuted by a hostile, secular world. While violence against Christians does occur in select parts of the world today, the rhetoric of persecution is both misleading and rooted in an inaccurate history of the early church. Moss urges modern Christians to abandon the conspiratorial assumption that the world is out to get Christians and, rather, embrace the consolation, moral instruction, and spiritual guidance that these martyrdom stories provide.
I agree with her message, but there is evidence of anti-Christian persecution.  True, it might not have been as prevalent as it was made out to be, and there were definitely some periods where Christianity was tolerated, but Christians were persecuted.
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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2013, 09:26:49 pm »
Myth of Persecution by Candida Moss.

Quote
In The Myth of Persecution, Candida Moss, a leading expert on early Christianity, reveals how the early church exaggerated, invented, and forged stories of Christian martyrs and how the dangerous legacy of a martyrdom complex is employed today to silence dissent and galvanize a new generation of culture warriors.

According to cherished church tradition and popular belief, before the Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal in the fourth century, early Christians were systematically persecuted by a brutal Roman Empire intent on their destruction. As the story goes, vast numbers of believers were thrown to the lions, tortured, or burned alive because they refused to renounce Christ. These saints, Christianity's inspirational heroes, are still venerated today.

Moss, however, exposes that the "Age of Martyrs" is a fiction—there was no sustained 300-year-long effort by the Romans to persecute Christians. Instead, these stories were pious exaggerations; highly stylized rewritings of Jewish, Greek, and Roman noble death traditions; and even forgeries designed to marginalize heretics, inspire the faithful, and fund churches.

The traditional story of persecution is still taught in Sunday school classes, celebrated in sermons, and employed by church leaders, politicians, and media pundits who insist that Christians were—and always will be—persecuted by a hostile, secular world. While violence against Christians does occur in select parts of the world today, the rhetoric of persecution is both misleading and rooted in an inaccurate history of the early church. Moss urges modern Christians to abandon the conspiratorial assumption that the world is out to get Christians and, rather, embrace the consolation, moral instruction, and spiritual guidance that these martyrdom stories provide.
Okay, someone show this to Rapture Ready ;D

Offline Dynamic Dragon

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2013, 09:27:51 pm »
Studies have shown that religion can lead to happiness.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2013, 09:29:14 pm »
Studies have shown that religion can lead to happiness.

Care to show us those studies?

I agree with her message, but there is evidence of anti-Christian persecution.  True, it might not have been as prevalent as it was made out to be, and there were definitely some periods where Christianity was tolerated, but Christians were persecuted.

Do you have any examples?
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Offline Dynamic Dragon

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #133 on: May 24, 2013, 09:32:49 pm »
Studies have shown that religion can lead to happiness.

Care to show us those studies?

I agree with her message, but there is evidence of anti-Christian persecution.  True, it might not have been as prevalent as it was made out to be, and there were definitely some periods where Christianity was tolerated, but Christians were persecuted.

Do you have any examples?

Here: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1015902-1,00.html

And the historian Tacitus wrote that Nero inflicted horrific punishments on the Christians after he blamed them for the Great Fire of Rome.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Good Things Religion has Done
« Reply #134 on: May 24, 2013, 09:41:23 pm »
Hmm...
I can counter that by saying, with personal experience, that religion can just as often lead to depression and even suicide as it does happiness.

For one thing, those groups of friends you supposedly get?  If you're too different, you don't fit in, and you feel it.

I was in the youth group at the local pentecostal church.  A good strong one, too, with lots of kids.  Not a one ever talked to me outside of the barest pretenses of civil conversation.  I wasn't athletic.  I was home schooled.  Those two things meant I had nothing in common with them.  I was only friends with another outcast, and he was a manipulative bastard who played with my emotions.

So, despite still considering myself religious and theistic, I don't have fond things to say about religion, and pretending that the bad doesn't exist or is outweighed by the good is disingenuous and actively harmful to people who have been harmed by religion and religious communities.

I know a kid from the same community who committed suicide recently.  He was surrounded by people who actively prayed for him and it only made him feel even more alone.

So no, I don't buy it.  Not even a single cent.
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