The Male's Say In Abortion

[TenfoldMaquette]

If we had a strong support network in place for single mothers, squeezing child-support out of an unwilling father would be a moot point. If formula, diapers, sprog-swaddling, etc were either steeply discounted - or better yet, free - then it wouldn't matter if "dad" wants the role or not because his financial contributions would be superlative.

But that would require that people actually care about the lives of all these baybeez they desperately want to be born, and that's a whole 'nother issue.

[Askold]

I thought about this thing for a while and I still haven't come up with a good solution.

On one hand I feel that the pregnant womans opinion should be the most important one, but on the other hand I do think that the father should also have some say on the matter. This is especially difficult subject since there are so many variables, so many different situations and I don't know if there can even be a single policy that would solve everything.

Sometimes one or both of the parents are unsuitable to raise a child, sometimes one or both of them don't want the child, sometimes the child has severe birth-defects...

Some pregnancies get started by accident, others are planned. In both cases the parents might disagree on what to do or change their mind.

Seriously, what should we do if the father wants to raise the child and the mother doesn't? Even if the father would agree to take the child and somehow release the birth mother from all oblications to the child? (Should it be right to force the mother to give birth to the child? If we turn this around should a court be able to order a mother to abort a fetus against her will?) What if the soon-to-be-parents are going trhough a break-up and the unborn child is just being used as a bargaining chip?

[The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist]

Seriously, what should we do if the father wants to raise the child and the mother doesn't? Even if the father would agree to take the child and somehow release the birth mother from all oblications to the child?

One of the core arguments for legal elective abortion -- and, in my opinion, probably the strongest one -- is a woman's rights over her own body. I very much sympathize with a man who finds himself in that situation, but I can't support forcing a woman to essentially become an incubator for 40 weeks in order to satisfy another person's desires.

[Askold]

Seriously, what should we do if the father wants to raise the child and the mother doesn't? Even if the father would agree to take the child and somehow release the birth mother from all oblications to the child?

One of the core arguments for legal elective abortion -- and, in my opinion, probably the strongest one -- is a woman's rights over her own body. I very much sympathize with a man who finds himself in that situation, but I can't support forcing a woman to essentially become an incubator for 40 weeks in order to satisfy another person's desires.

And that is why I am conflicted on this matter. I will definitely agree that forcing a woman to be an incubator is bad but if the mother can make the decision on her own then the father has NO say/rights on this matter.

Also I forgot to add that sometimes the woman's health is also on the stake. And forcing a woman to give birth if it causes a significant health risk to her is even worse.

[Canadian Mojo]

Fundamentally, if you want to give women the freedom to choose, you are going to have to take away the fathers right to walk away because it provides far too much leverage to coerce a decision. If all a guy has to do is say 'get rid of it' to be off the hook, it is going to abused and women who don't want to have abortions are going to be left in an awful position because either they will have to do something they don't believe in or be left without any support. Personally I think forcing a woman to have an abortion is just as morally repugnant a forcing a woman to not have one.

[RavynousHunter]

Waitwaitwait...Mojo, are you saying that if I don't want a child, but a woman I've slept with and impregnated does, that I shouldn't be able to leave a situation that'd make my fucking life miserable?  She can have child support, that's fine, so long as I retain my right to be separate from the child.  Hell, I'd even let her have full custody.

That kind of bullshit it one of the reasons I'm seriously considering a vasectomy.

[Nightangel8212]

This kind of debate makes me relieved me and my boyfriend both agree that we are never having children. If I get pregnant, the decision is an easy one. He has one child already and he says that's more than enough for him.

[RavynousHunter]

Yuuuuuuuuup.  I'm not about to be with a woman who'd want kids...I'm sorry, but that's a deal-breaker, right there.  Along with already having had them...

[Osama bin Bambi]

Wage inequality and reproductive rights are actually two different issues that have to be dealt with separately. Yes, there should be regulations in place to enforce equal pay for equal work. I think there should be some reliable system of financial support for women to pay for the bare necessities of having children, but I don't think child support is the way to do it.

Most women get abortions for socioeconomic reasons - to cut off all financial, parental, and legal responsibility for a would-be child. I think that men should have the same right too, but its time window should be tied to the time window of female abortion.

The "He had a part in making it" argument sounds a lot like the "She shouldn't have had sex if she didn't want a baby" argument. The precautions that the couple could have taken are irrelevant. The fact is that forcing a man to pay for an unwanted child is a violation of his right to his property and his right to privacy. The government has no place in making decisions as to the extent in which a father should be involved in his child's life (abusive fathers notwithstanding).

[clockworkgirl21]

The idea that the father should have a right to walk away from responsibilities and rights to the child is called financial abortion, I've heard. I support it in theory, but it does have some kinks to work out, such as abortion not being available to every woman, abortion being painful and expensive, children living in poverty, etc. For it to really work, abortion would have to be legal and easy to get everywhere, and affordable.

And of course, he would have to inform the woman of this early on. No skipping town while she's in labor and delivery.

But if this ever happens, it's pretty far off, considering courts have decided male rape victims should pay child support. This teenager had sex with his teacher, and the woman went to jail for statutory rape. But she was pregnant, and the kid is going to be forced to pay child support after he's 18.

Not to mention this woman actually kept her boyfriend's condoms without his knowledge, used the semen to get pregnant, and was granted child support.

[Osama bin Bambi]

The point is that the right exists in theory. Implementing it is another thing altogether. Yes, female abortions, practically speaking, are harder to get than male financial abortions, but legally speaking they should not be. The right exists, but it's up to society to implement it effectively. (Unfortunately, our society doesn't implement female abortion very effectively.)

[Witchyjoshy]

The problem is that all of my solutions require that the courts be psychic.

In theory, my idea is that if the woman chooses to go ahead and have a child in spite of the father's wishes (and efforts), then the man should have the right to abandon responsibility, the idea being that if the woman makes a conscious decision to have a child, she should be able to support it at well.

Also in theory, if a man coerces a woman into having a child, he should be required to pay for it.

Having said that, it's also terrible because it's open for abuse, and the only way to stop that is for the courts to be psychic.

Of course, the current system is that it's possible for women to coerce men into essentially being fountains of money for them.  Strangely enough, two opposite but equivalent inequalities do not create an equality - it just creates two inequalities.

Gah, this is a difficult subject... a difficult one indeed... none of my ideas are good...

[Canadian Mojo]

Waitwaitwait...Mojo, are you saying that if I don't want a child, but a woman I've slept with and impregnated does, that I shouldn't be able to leave a situation that'd make my fucking life miserable?  She can have child support, that's fine, so long as I retain my right to be separate from the child.  Hell, I'd even let her have full custody.

That kind of bullshit it one of the reasons I'm seriously considering a vasectomy.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we should be on the hook for child support (and nothing else) rather than being able to say 'I don't feel like paying for one, get an abortion' because given the two options this one is less bad. It's not a particularly good option, but it is basically all we've got. I'm guessing it's the phrase '...take away the fathers right to walk away...' that's caused the confusion. I' meant it only in the sense that you can't walk away from your obligation completely even if you don't agree with the mother's decision.

As clockwork's examples demonstrate, it really shouldn't be an absolute right/obligation either.

[erictheblue]

Waitwaitwait...Mojo, are you saying that if I don't want a child, but a woman I've slept with and impregnated does, that I shouldn't be able to leave a situation that'd make my fucking life miserable?  She can have child support, that's fine, so long as I retain my right to be separate from the child.  Hell, I'd even let her have full custody.

Your two comments are not contradictory, and I think they pretty much agree with what mojo was saying. Having to pay child support is not getting off free, even if your only obligation is paying. The point is, you have some level of responsibility. Contrast to a guy who says "I don't want it" and can walk away without any obligation, just because he said he wanted her to abort.

[Cataclysm]

Waitwaitwait...Mojo, are you saying that if I don't want a child, but a woman I've slept with and impregnated does, that I shouldn't be able to leave a situation that'd make my fucking life miserable?  She can have child support, that's fine, so long as I retain my right to be separate from the child.  Hell, I'd even let her have full custody.

That kind of bullshit it one of the reasons I'm seriously considering a vasectomy.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we should be on the hook for child support (and nothing else) rather than being able to say 'I don't feel like paying for one, get an abortion' because given the two options this one is less bad. It's not a particularly good option, but it is basically all we've got. I'm guessing it's the phrase '...take away the fathers right to walk away...' that's caused the confusion. I' meant it only in the sense that you can't walk away from your obligation completely even if you don't agree with the mother's decision.

No, it was her choice to keep the child, so her partner is under no obligation to pay for it.