2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo

[Ultimate Paragon]

Oh please, like you're one to talk about personal attacks.

Also, none of this wouldn't have happened if Israel hadn't fucking invaded Palestine.

You can try to blame Hamas and Palestine all you want, but Israel shares most of the fucking blame in this.

I will believe Hamas and Palestine are equivalent to Israel when Hamas starts bulldozing Israeli homes, driving the Israeli people into a corner, launching military grade bombs at their hospitals, their homes, etc.

Honestly, right now, the IDF is three times as much the terrorists as Hamas is.

Um, Palestinians have done some monstrous things.  Ever hear of the Coastal Road Massacre?

The Coastal Road massacre of 1978 was an attack involving the hijacking of a bus on Israel's Coastal Highway in which 38 Israeli civilians, including 13 children, were killed, and 71 were wounded

A drop in the bucket compared to what Israel's currently, at this very moment, doing to Palestine.

Why are you treating this like a numbers game?

Is that the best defense you've got to my argument?  Deflecting won't save you from reality.

Then ignoring the numbers (which is a terrible thing to do), the level of atrocity happening to the Palestinean people is easily FAR worse than what happened in that massacre.  Their home are bulldozed, they've been quarantined (and I've yet to see any actual evidence that the quarantine has lifted), their children are being intentionally targetted and killed...

If Hamas had been doing what Israel's been doing, you wouldn't be defending their actions, you would be crying about how they're dirty terrorists.

All I'm doing is what you refuse to do - scrutinize Israel's actions and decry their actions as terrorism, which they fit every single qualifer for and then some.

I'm not defending Israel's actions.  Their actions during the assault on Gaza have been contemptible.  My point is that both sides must share the blame for these tragedies.  Your one-sided narrative of Israeli oppression isn't just inaccurate, it's offensive.  You may not intend to do it, but you're throwing the deaths of innocent Israelis under the bus, calling them "unimportant".

You're also ignoring the geopolitical complexities and historical context.  It doesn't justify what Israel is doing, but it does explain the root causes of what's going on.  Hardly anything is black and white.

[ironbite]

*eats popcorn*

Ironbite-anyone wanna see how far up Israel's ass UP can get or are we gonna call it here?

[Witchyjoshy]

I'm not defending Israel's actions.  Their actions during the assault on Gaza have been contemptible.  My point is that both sides must share the blame for these tragedies.  Your one-sided narrative of Israeli oppression isn't just inaccurate, it's offensive.  You may not intend to do it, but you're throwing the deaths of innocent Israelis under the bus, calling them "unimportant".

You're also ignoring the geopolitical complexities and historical context.  It doesn't justify what Israel is doing, but it does explain the root causes of what's going on.  Hardly anything is black and white.

My one-sided narrative?  That's rich.

I have never said Hamas has no blame in this matter.  But I have said, repeatedly, that Israel shares the MOST blame, because they do.

Blaming the victim is never acceptable, and Palestine is the victim in all of this.  Insisting that they are anywhere near equal blame is insulting to everything.

You keep bringing up Hamas, but it is you who is ignoring why Palestine turned to Hamas in the first place.

And the answer to that is Israel is Oppressing Them.

There isn't a "both sides are at fault" here.  The median fallacy is especially fallacious in this context.  By insisting that Palestine/Hamas and Israel are shouldering equal blame, you are the one throwing the oppressed people of Palestine under the bus.

It's like blaming a an assault victim for smashing his assaulter's face in after being assaulted.

[Mechtaur]

tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.


I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.

[Iczerfour]

*eats popcorn*

Ironbite-anyone wanna see how far up Israel's ass UP can get or are we gonna call it here?

*Joins ironbite and eats a cupcake*  Hmm.. Tastes like marshmallows..

I think the Demon beast Resurrection Way "up the ass out the mouth"

[guizonde]

There isn't a "both sides are at fault" here.  The median fallacy is especially fallacious in this context.  By insisting that Palestine/Hamas and Israel are shouldering equal blame, you are the one throwing the oppressed people of Palestine under the bus.

It's like blaming a an assault victim for smashing his assaulter's face in after being assaulted.

yes and no. both sides are at fault. it's not a fallacy in that indeed hamas and israel are guilty. does that make the israelis or the palestinians more guilty than the other? no, it does not. hamas and israel are shouldering equal blame insomuch as neither wants to give way in this international dick-waving contest. palestinians are oppressed physically, israelis are oppressed legally (i'm sure most israelis find their government's policies atrocious). most want this conflict to end.

off topic: in france, self-defence does work that way: if the victim deals more damage to the aggressor, he's the one to go down. screwed up, isn't it?

right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.

blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.

edit: as of two weeks ago, the idf has suspended any possibility to opt out of the draft. soldiers are going to the front without any choice in the matter, and defectors or dodgers are being severely punished.

[Ultimate Paragon]

There isn't a "both sides are at fault" here.  The median fallacy is especially fallacious in this context.  By insisting that Palestine/Hamas and Israel are shouldering equal blame, you are the one throwing the oppressed people of Palestine under the bus.

It's like blaming a an assault victim for smashing his assaulter's face in after being assaulted.

yes and no. both sides are at fault. it's not a fallacy in that indeed hamas and israel are guilty. does that make the israelis or the palestinians more guilty than the other? no, it does not. hamas and israel are shouldering equal blame insomuch as neither wants to give way in this international dick-waving contest. palestinians are oppressed physically, israelis are oppressed legally (i'm sure most israelis find their government's policies atrocious). most want this conflict to end.

off topic: in france, self-defence does work that way: if the victim deals more damage to the aggressor, he's the one to go down. screwed up, isn't it?

right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.

blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.

edit: as of two weeks ago, the idf has suspended any possibility to opt out of the draft. soldiers are going to the front without any choice in the matter, and defectors or dodgers are being severely punished.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Meshakhad]

tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.


I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.

Given that Hamas doesn't think much of them, they won't make any inroads.

[Mechtaur]

tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.


I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.

Given that Hamas doesn't think much of them, they won't make any inroads.

Give that IS seems to not care what others want, I'm curious how Hamas will react when the question of "Join us" comes up. Assuming their little escapades in Saudi goes as planned of course.

[I am lizard]

I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?

I hope it leads to the U.S. pulling foreign aid to Israel and levying sanctions against them. If only...

Afterwards unicorns will dance across rainbows and Republicans will stop fearing any kind of change!

[Meshakhad]

tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.


I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.

Given that Hamas doesn't think much of them, they won't make any inroads.

Give that IS seems to not care what others want, I'm curious how Hamas will react when the question of "Join us" comes up. Assuming their little escapades in Saudi goes as planned of course.

I think Hamas' answer will be along the lines of 7.62mmR. And Israel just might help.

[Mechtaur]

tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.


I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.

Given that Hamas doesn't think much of them, they won't make any inroads.

Give that IS seems to not care what others want, I'm curious how Hamas will react when the question of "Join us" comes up. Assuming their little escapades in Saudi goes as planned of course.

I think Hamas' answer will be along the lines of 7.62mmR. And Israel just might help.

I was actually thinking there is the possibility that Hamas and IS would join to fight Israel before spiraling into a war between themselves if IS tries to get too... Hands on, I guess. Considering IS doesn't recognize Israel and supports Palestine.

On the other hand, Israel and Palestine might just need a third party to get their butts in line with eachother.

Aw, speculation is a fun thing.

[Sylvana]

right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.

blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.

Not quite from what I can see, which I admit is not much, but from my perspective, Palestine barely has any kind of single unified form of government. Hamas isn't so much in control of Palestine as it is a fragmented violent organization full of people angry at Israel. I dont think Hamas could stop attacks on Israel because they lack any kind of cohesive command structure. It wouldn't surprise me if the people actually doing the attacks are just angry civilians.

If we take the killing and attacks on both side out of the equation, what Israel is doing to Palestine with the ghettos, expanding housing projects and the complete disenfranchising of the Palestinian people, it can really be likened directly to Apartheid. Is it surprising that the Palestinian people have no other option but to turn to violence?

They have tried to solve thing diplomatically. Last time this flared up the peace process was completely destroyed because on the day negotiations were supposed to start Israel declared plans for another round of housing expansion into Palestinian territories. Palestine tried to become recognized as a state and gain international protection from Israel by appealing to the UN, but were vetoed by Israels sucker ally America.

Saying both are equally at fault might have been true once. Lately though, as Israel becomes more oppressive, the blame is steadily pointing at them alone. The Palestinians literally have no other option but to fire essentially harmless rockets into Israel in a feeble gesture of self defense. The only other option for them is to just lie down and die.

[Askold]

https://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Gazan-sotakatsomo/145286

[Mechtaur]

https://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Gazan-sotakatsomo/145286

That reminds me way too much of a painting from back in the Civil War.

Apparently the practice hasn't changed very much.