The "Faith" Arguement.

[R. U. Sirius]

For most Christians, faith is not simply coasting around blindly.  Me, I am firmly convinced that God exists.  I believe, as Descartes believed, that the fact that we can conceive of an infinitely perfect being must mean that one exists.

So when do I get my pet firebreathing dragon? After all, we can conceive of them, therefore they must exist.

[Ultimate Paragon]

For most Christians, faith is not simply coasting around blindly.  Me, I am firmly convinced that God exists.  I believe, as Descartes believed, that the fact that we can conceive of an infinitely perfect being must mean that one exists.

So when do I get my pet firebreathing dragon? After all, we can conceive of them, therefore they must exist.

False equivalence.  I don't think any conception of dragons puts them in the metaphysical realm.

[R. U. Sirius]

For most Christians, faith is not simply coasting around blindly.  Me, I am firmly convinced that God exists.  I believe, as Descartes believed, that the fact that we can conceive of an infinitely perfect being must mean that one exists.

So when do I get my pet firebreathing dragon? After all, we can conceive of them, therefore they must exist.

False equivalence.

Not in the least. Being able to imagine something has absolutely no bearing on whether or not that thing will actually exist.

[Ultimate Paragon]

For most Christians, faith is not simply coasting around blindly.  Me, I am firmly convinced that God exists.  I believe, as Descartes believed, that the fact that we can conceive of an infinitely perfect being must mean that one exists.

So when do I get my pet firebreathing dragon? After all, we can conceive of them, therefore they must exist.

False equivalence.

Not in the least. Being able to imagine something has absolutely no bearing on whether or not that thing will actually exist.

The difference is that dragons would exist on the physical plane, while God is a metaphysical concept.

[RavynousHunter]

Ideas don't routinely go around acting of their own accord, that is the realm of living beings and living beings alone.

[Canadian Mojo]

I think at the end of the day you have to concede that Christianity is simply too small minded in its thinking to be right about god. Biblically we would be what? A ten thousand year run from beginning to the very end. For some reason we are in a timeline we know to already be billions of years long. Biblically we are the focus of everything, and are in fact the only thing, yet we sit in a quiet nondescript little corner of an unimaginably vast universe surrounded by millions of other worlds just as capable of supporting life as ours.

Even if you do believe in a god the stories Christians have come up with to explain their understanding of it and what it wants us to be and do simply fall short of giving a credible reason why.

[Ultimate Paragon]

I think at the end of the day you have to concede that Christianity is simply too small minded in its thinking to be right about god. Biblically we would be what? A ten thousand year run from beginning to the very end. For some reason we are in a timeline we know to already be billions of years long. Biblically we are the focus of everything, and are in fact the only thing, yet we sit in a quiet nondescript little corner of an unimaginably vast universe surrounded by millions of other worlds just as capable of supporting life as ours.

Even if you do believe in a god the stories Christians have come up with to explain their understanding of it and what it wants us to be and do simply fall short of giving a credible reason why.

In this context, "God" should be capitalized.

But I partly agree with you.  We cannot truly understand God.  However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

And as for the timeline and universe arguments:

1. Come back to me when you have evidence of a religion practiced by dinosaurs.
2. The Vatican's position is that it would welcome extraterrestrial life into the Catholic Church.

[rageaholic]

You know, if we accept all that, Ultie, it still begs this question. Why the Abrahamic deity? There have been, what, 3000 his and goddesses. Putting no thought or research into the subject, I can come up with five more good that have books of spiritual worship. The Abrahamic god had three very distinct factions that all claim to worship him but are constantly at each other's throats. Sometimes literally.
Anyways, why the faith in your deity and not one of the countless others?

Faith is a tricky thing.  See, the main reason is that I've had several experiences that have shaped my religion, in the same way that I've had experiences that shaped my political views.  Christianity just... speaks to me.  It's hard to describe.

I think this is really what it comes down to, experience.  Aside from being raised as moderate a Catholic, I haven't had much experience that can convince me either way.  Sure, I could still choose to follow a sect of beliefs, but that's very hard to do when you're doubtful, especially the whole "personal relationship with Jesus" meme. 

That's also why the hellfire/angry god theology falls apart.  If God's a threatening God, God would actually threaten people.  The only ones threatening anyone are the sadistic preachers who most likely have their own agenda. 

[Ultimate Paragon]

You know, if we accept all that, Ultie, it still begs this question. Why the Abrahamic deity? There have been, what, 3000 his and goddesses. Putting no thought or research into the subject, I can come up with five more good that have books of spiritual worship. The Abrahamic god had three very distinct factions that all claim to worship him but are constantly at each other's throats. Sometimes literally.
Anyways, why the faith in your deity and not one of the countless others?

Faith is a tricky thing.  See, the main reason is that I've had several experiences that have shaped my religion, in the same way that I've had experiences that shaped my political views.  Christianity just... speaks to me.  It's hard to describe.

I think this is really what it comes down to, experience.  Aside from being raised as moderate a Catholic, I haven't had much experience that can convince me either way.  Sure, I could still choose to follow a sect of beliefs, but that's very hard to do when you're doubtful, especially the whole "personal relationship with Jesus" meme. 

That's also why the hellfire/angry god theology falls apart.  If God's a threatening God, God would actually threaten people.  The only ones threatening anyone are the sadistic preachers who most likely have their own agenda.

Agreed.

[Canadian Mojo]

I think at the end of the day you have to concede that Christianity is simply too small minded in its thinking to be right about god. Biblically we would be what? A ten thousand year run from beginning to the very end. For some reason we are in a timeline we know to already be billions of years long. Biblically we are the focus of everything, and are in fact the only thing, yet we sit in a quiet nondescript little corner of an unimaginably vast universe surrounded by millions of other worlds just as capable of supporting life as ours.

Even if you do believe in a god the stories Christians have come up with to explain their understanding of it and what it wants us to be and do simply fall short of giving a credible reason why.

In this context, "God" should be capitalized.

But I partly agree with you.  We cannot truly understand God.  However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

And as for the timeline and universe arguments:

1. Come back to me when you have evidence of a religion practiced by dinosaurs.
2. The Vatican's position is that it would welcome extraterrestrial life into the Catholic Church.

Its not that dinosaurs practiced a religion, it is that they existed at all that is the issue. Bible God makes sense if he created us a few thousand years ago in his image to love and worship him and eventually learn to be good so we can live in paradise for eternity. It doesn't make so much sense if it took him billions of years and started with a single celled organism just to finish up with a quick little blink of the eye.

Would the Vatican welcome E.T. Jesus though? Would it accept that maybe, just maybe, we aren't the ones that were created in his image? kill, convert, or ignore, but do not re-evaluate their basic paradigm in the light of a much larger and grander creation than a bronze age collection of myths could come up with.

If there is a god it is far greater than the limits imposed on it by Christianity, and if they can't get that part of the story right then why should we believe any of the rest?

[Ultimate Paragon]

1. Like I said, God exists outside of time.

2. When it was said that God created us in his image, it doesn't mean that God looks like a human.  What the phrase actually means is that we are creative, spiritual, communicative, intelligent, etc.  I think that passage could also apply to sapient extraterrestrials.

3. Darwin didn't understand the full complexities of evolution, but that doesn't mean we should ignore On the Origin of Species.

[Witchyjoshy]

3. Darwin didn't understand the full complexities of evolution, but that doesn't mean we should ignore On the Origin of Species.

That's actually a fair point.

I suppose the problem with it, though, is that it's a subject that is literally impossible to actually research, whereas evolution is relatively very easy to observe and research.  If anything, because it seems that Yahweh presents himself to different people in different ways, to say nothing of the massive difference between Jewish Yahweh and Christian Yahweh.

I will say that despite being... spiritual, I guess is the correct term ("eclectic" is technically a non-religion due to lack of structure), I don't actually believe in faith.  I don't know if the gods are out there.  I feel they are, but that's not evidence for anything.  So I go with my intuition.  And if I'm wrong... then I'm wrong.  Big whoop.

Heck, Christian!Yahweh might even be as real as any of the other gods I worship.  I just feel like that one is completely unworthy of worship, being neither omnipotent, omniscient, nor omnibenevolent.

[Cerim Treascair]

Heck, Christian!Yahweh might even be as real as any of the other gods I worship.  I just feel like that one is completely unworthy of worship, being neither omnipotent, omniscient, nor omnibenevolent.

One of the better quotes I've found is "Yeah, the other deities weren't much better, but at least they were HONEST about being dicks."

[Canadian Mojo]

1. Like I said, God exists outside of time.

2. When it was said that God created us in his image, it doesn't mean that God looks like a human.  What the phrase actually means is that we are creative, spiritual, communicative, intelligent, etc.  I think that passage could also apply to sapient extraterrestrials.

3. Darwin didn't understand the full complexities of evolution, but that doesn't mean we should ignore On the Origin of Species.

I think at the end of the day you and I are not that far apart. You don't seem to be particularly constrained by The Book which is the problem that a lot of people seem to have. They get trapped by a few stories and specific words and refuse to accept that it is anything more than a little snippet in time that worked to help a primitive people grow. Just like the mythologies that proceeded them. Just like the mythologies that will have to follow if a concept of divinity is to continue to exist.

I've gotta run (work, yay) but I'll probably pick back up this when I get home.

[rageaholic]

Not sure how on topic this is, but I noticed that 99% of the time religion comes up as a topic (this thread being in the 1% exception group), opponents are always accused of not understanding the faith.  Even if the atheist/agnostic has been raised as a Christian for decades and has been to many churches, that's never enough for the "true Christians" who will talk to them as if they never set foot in a church or picked up a bible.  Even those who avoid the "No True Scotsman" fallacy come across that way. 

More on topic, I love how fundies can accept what ever bullshit reasoning for the absurd claims of the bible, but demand actual evidence for things that should be common sense to all.  The most notorious is Vox Day, who needed statistical data to claim that rape was harmful to society (quote here).  This guy is completely insane, yet still tries to come across as Mr Objective.