FSTDT Forums
Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: ScrappyB on April 17, 2013, 08:30:44 pm
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I was raised as a Christian, but since rejecting that worldview I've called myself an agnostic. I've never seen any evidence of deities, but I can't rule them out either just because proving such things is beyond science. I think religion came about as a way to explain phenomena people lacked the understanding and technology to explain, and I'm confident that as our scientific knowledge grows the mysteries currently attributed to supernatural forces will be explained, just like they have in the past.
I don't believe in any kind of deity that's even concerned with life on Earth as a whole, let alone the lives and actions of individual people. Philosophically I consider myself a secular humanist, and I don't really care what people choose to believe as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on others. Unfortunately, fundies seldom do this so I find myself irritated at them quite often. On the other hand, militant atheists annoy me for the same reason.
After doing some reading on atheism, I've started to wonder whether I unconsciously gave myself that label in order to avoid the stigma of calling myself an atheist.
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The way I've always heard it:
Atheist: "There is no God. Period."
Agnostic: "I don't know whether there is a God or not and am not convinced one way or the other."
I think I lean toward the latter.
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Me, I go with atheist because I'm not theistic, but I personally don't care about religion. It's a lot of silly questions that will never lead us to answers and will never help us. Call yourself what your comfortable calling yourself and go from there.
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I think the proper term for what people think of an agnostic is an "agnostic atheist." "I don't believe in any deities but I'm not ruling out the actual possibility."
The proper term for what people think of an atheist is a "gnostic atheist." "There are no deities, period."
Both are equally valid viewpoints.
I've heard it jokingly described that a fundie agnostic would run around screaming "I don't know, and neither do you!"
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Based on the info you gave, I'd say atheist, because you don't believe in any deity.
I don't believe any deities exist. I'm willing to admit that you can't prove such a thing for sure, because how the hell do you prove that something doesn't exist? You can't prove a negative, but you shouldn't have to in order to believe that it doesn't exist. (I don't believe unicorns exist, but I can't actually prove it.) Because there is no evidence whatsoever of a god, then I see no reason to believe in one. Thus making me atheist.
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I've heard it jokingly described that a fundie agnostic would run around screaming "I don't know, and neither do you!"
Joke or not, it seems valid to me. Nothing wrong with believing in a god, but thinking you know for sure in detail what happens after you die and everyone who believes differently is wrong? Heh, I don't know, and neither do you.
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I've heard it jokingly described that a fundie agnostic would run around screaming "I don't know, and neither do you!"
Joke or not, it seems valid to me. Nothing wrong with believing in a god, but thinking you know for sure in detail what happens after you die and everyone who believes differently is wrong? Heh, I don't know, and neither do you.
Hell, that mindset is why pagans are generally not supposed to criticize others for their paths.
That and they're supposed to believe that their brand of paganism isn't "the only way" like some religions believe. Many roads to Rome, let's say.
It's a good mindset, but not when taken to extremes.
...Granted I don't know of anyone who has, considering the nature of it.
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Do you wish to waffle or not believe?
I really fail to see the point of claiming agnosticism most of the time, if we can't know, why bother caring about the matter? And honestly if you're not going to live giving lip service to which ever gods you believe might be possible you may as well be an atheist anyway, not a whole lot of theology judges people on if they think the particular god might possibly exist.
Atheism is as simple as not believing there is a god. Personally I have no sense of there being a god, see no proof for any gods, and find the waffly position annoying as I can't get a proper breakfast out of this no matter how many times I say waffle.
If you're really torn on the matter, really not sure about it. Then agnostic actually does make sense. If it's something that keeps you up at night or occupies your thoughts on a regular basis, that seems like honest agnosticism to me. If you don't believe but hope to be less offensive by claiming you can't prove it, then you're wasting everyone's time. If you have little use for a belief in god, and sleep fine regardless of one exists or not, then you're living atheism already and may as well run with it.
I've heard it jokingly described that a fundie agnostic would run around screaming "I don't know, and neither do you!"
Joke or not, it seems valid to me. Nothing wrong with believing in a god, but thinking you know for sure in detail what happens after you die and everyone who believes differently is wrong? Heh, I don't know, and neither do you.
I've met one of those idiots and it was more annoying than any evangelical I've ever had to deal with. The guy lived every day of his life as if there was no god, soul and theological text may as well be used as toliet paper. But he couldn't possibly be an atheist, atheists are all assholes who are wrong because we can't possibly know.
I can assure you I wasn't the asshole in that particular conversation. I, the atheist, made arguments for preserving theological texts as a method of studying how the human mind works and creates mythologies.
And now I really want waffles.
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Which brand of Eggo waffles shall I send you, great overlord? :D
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I think my sister is a good example of an agnostic, because she waffles back and forth constantly, as Distind described. The OP is leaning more to one side than the other, which is why atheist is probably best. And it'd be silly to remain agnostic to avoid any sort of stigma, considering it's not much of a "stigma leap" to go from agnostic to atheist.
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Hmm. I tend to go with being an atheist instead of agnostic, because agnostic seems to imply a greater level of doubt.
I think there is no god, but I do acknowledge that it is not completely impossible that god could exist.
I don't think vampires exist either, but it is not completely impossible that they are real.
I wouldn't sit on the fence about vampires though and say i'm undecided, so I don't do the same with god.
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The atheist subscribes to the belief that there is no god because there is no evidence whatsoever to warrant such a belief. "Well golly, there maybe could be some sort of god perhaps" strikes me as a lame position at best. Agnosticism is a rarefied form of hedging one's bet.
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Your spirituality is yours alone so call yourself whatever you want. If you feel you're being honest with yourself by calling yourself an agnostic, then go for it. It's your choice, not anyone else's.
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Never heard an atheist say "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO GODS EVER AT ALL" outside of r/atheism.
The atheist subscribes to the belief that there is no god because there is no evidence whatsoever to warrant such a belief. "Well golly, there maybe could be some sort of god perhaps" strikes me as a lame position at best. Agnosticism is a rarefied form of hedging one's bet.
+1 to this.
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(http://www.noforbiddenquestions.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/agnostic-diagram11.png)
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File me under Agnostic Theist.
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I'll go under Agnostic Theist, too.
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I always found odd the fine graining of terminology we have for various degrees of belief in gods, even before accounting for things like varying numbers of gods, different distributions of worship of gods, and philosophical positions on the meaningfulness and answerableness of the god question.
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wait. i've always considered myself atheist (my belief is that you're born with Faith or without. it doesn't grow on you). yet i know i've been baptized under bacchus, and i (half-jokingly) swear by Pelor. i'm convinced neither exist, yet by those definitions, that would make me a theist...
help?
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wait. i've always considered myself atheist (my belief is that you're born with Faith or without. it doesn't grow on you). yet i know i've been baptized under bacchus, and i (half-jokingly) swear by Pelor. i'm convinced neither exist, yet by those definitions, that would make me a theist...
help?
Wait, did you just say you were baptized in the name of an ancient Greek god?
Baptism usually doesn't happen with consent, so it's not a particularly good measure of whether one is religious or not. Also, jokingly swearing by a fictional god without believing in him is technically not theism, since you don't have the prerequisite belief in said god. I'm an atheist but I say "swear to God" all the time - that doesn't make me a theist though.
I personally doubt that religion is hardwired into someone at birth. There are a lot of people, some members of this forum included, who have gone from being devoutly religious to atheistic, and there are a handful of cases of people going the other way around.
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wait. i've always considered myself atheist (my belief is that you're born with Faith or without. it doesn't grow on you). yet i know i've been baptized under bacchus, and i (half-jokingly) swear by Pelor. i'm convinced neither exist, yet by those definitions, that would make me a theist...
help?
Why do you think you're born with or without it? Children become religious through their family and culture, and are able to switch religions or bail on it at any time.
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wait. i've always considered myself atheist (my belief is that you're born with Faith or without. it doesn't grow on you). yet i know i've been baptized under bacchus, and i (half-jokingly) swear by Pelor. i'm convinced neither exist, yet by those definitions, that would make me a theist...
What definition are you looking at?
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I just mentioned in another thread that I am somewhat a Muslim, as well as having an interest in Ifa/Vodou, however, I would put myself under Agnostic Theist in that I do believe that there is a higher power above all but I cannot say for certain that there is one. Mostly been told by my mom that I have to have "faith" but my skeptical and logical mindset makes it hard to just have faith.
I just go to where I need spirituality and try to find an anchor but yeah I am still ambivalent in what I believe.
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I'll file myself under, 'Stubborn, Pig-headed Skeptic.' I want to believe in a higher power and afterlife, but (and my wife has also pointed this out), a god or ghost could punch me in the face, and (assuming I'm still alive and somewhat as sane as before), I'd think it was just my imagination.
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The OP should call themselves the Grand High Imperial Archduchess-Mage Goddess-Empress of Indeterminacy, Doubt and Scepticism and First Lady of Milton Keynes.
Because 1. it covers all the bases and 2. I'm pretty sure Milton Keynes doesn't have any nobility assigned to it, so it's there for the taking.
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The OP should call themselves the Grand High Imperial Archduchess-Mage Goddess-Empress of Indeterminacy, Doubt and Scepticism and First Lady of Milton Keynes.
Because 1. it covers all the bases and 2. I'm pretty sure Milton Keynes doesn't have any nobility assigned to it, so it's there for the taking.
The Magic Roundabout could symbolise the confusion of not knowing which direction to take.
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I call myself an agnostic simply because I question. Of course part of that is how fucked up churches are. Hell if the Catholic church ever pulled it's head out of it's ass I would most likely go back.
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@Eva-Beatrice: yeah... the "baptism" involves being in a temple dedicated to wine and merriment, and being annointed with wine.
it was in '89, in a wine cellar, with a bartender/oenologist (bacchus' devout) annointing me with a bottle of jurançon '84 (white wine). i was a week old. it wasn't meant to be a true bacchic baptism, but i searched around and it's pretty much down pat. so i laugh it off. (helps explain my weakness to white wine, though!)
@sigmaleph: the ones from the start of the thread. must've misread something (again)
@sleepy: it's weird to explain, but i've seen atheists motivated by something i call Faith (with the capital F), like it's a divine pulsion. i've seen it in some curates or other church officials, like they really do believe what they preach. someone who is profoundly devout, but not bigoted. i've seen a lot of the reverse (me included) who can't grasp that. a physical impossibility to manifest those feelings and that ardour. it's not tied to religion, either. kind of an unshakeable, unchangeable thing. like being left-handed, or having blue eyes. you can't do anything about it, you have it or you don't. it's pretty cool to see it in action, really stimulating, makes you feel giddy, almost. hell, i feel awesome for them, but i'm wowwed by things i can't do/ perceive.
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@Eva-Beatrice: yeah... the "baptism" involves being in a temple dedicated to wine and merriment, and being annointed with wine.
it was in '89, in a wine cellar, with a bartender/oenologist (bacchus' devout) annointing me with a bottle of jurançon '84 (white wine). i was a week old. it wasn't meant to be a true bacchic baptism, but i searched around and it's pretty much down pat. so i laugh it off. (helps explain my weakness to white wine, though!)
For a second I thought your parents were neopagans who literally worshipped Bacchus or something. :D I happen to know a girl who was given an exorcism using blessed cooking oil, but that's not the same thing, is it?
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@Eva-Beatrice: yeah... the "baptism" involves being in a temple dedicated to wine and merriment, and being annointed with wine.
it was in '89, in a wine cellar, with a bartender/oenologist (bacchus' devout) annointing me with a bottle of jurançon '84 (white wine). i was a week old. it wasn't meant to be a true bacchic baptism, but i searched around and it's pretty much down pat. so i laugh it off. (helps explain my weakness to white wine, though!)
For a second I thought your parents were neopagans who literally worshipped Bacchus or something. :D I happen to know a girl who was given an exorcism using blessed cooking oil, but that's not the same thing, is it?
my mom's openly anticlerical (spanish civil war descendant... not exactly friendly with the church), my dad's atheist. they just let the bartender do it for shits, giggles, and as an excuse to party. yup, first act after being born:"drinks on me guys, i'll catch up in 18 years!". (you could say that i worship bacchus openly, since praising him boils down to "eat, drink, be merry, and fuck subtlety because it's time to party!" but hey...)
as an aside, my best friend was raised neopagan. he sees it as a philosophy, but his mom actually goes on pilgrimages every solstice and equinox. she's a fun girl. crazy, but fun. ;D
i was never too friendly with organized church, but i do have a lot of respect for the devout. bigots, on the other hand... well, i AM on the boards and the forums, so you can guess... also, whenever i look at american christian doctrines, i always wind up screaming "HERESY!!" since it doesn't exactly fall anywhere near orthodoxy, catholicism, or protestantism (dominionism, i'm looking at you...). whenever people ask why i can quote scripture to offer counter-examples to bigotted claims off the top of my head, i always answer "knowledge is power, and you should know your enemy"... yeah, i guess i'm slightly anticlerical.
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@sleepy: it's weird to explain, but i've seen atheists motivated by something i call Faith (with the capital F), like it's a divine pulsion. i've seen it in some curates or other church officials, like they really do believe what they preach. someone who is profoundly devout, but not bigoted. i've seen a lot of the reverse (me included) who can't grasp that. a physical impossibility to manifest those feelings and that ardour. it's not tied to religion, either. kind of an unshakeable, unchangeable thing. like being left-handed, or having blue eyes. you can't do anything about it, you have it or you don't. it's pretty cool to see it in action, really stimulating, makes you feel giddy, almost. hell, i feel awesome for them, but i'm wowwed by things i can't do/ perceive.
I'm not sure what you mean with the "Faith" concept, but I really don't see religion in the same way. There are plenty of church officials like the ones you described, but there are also some who are bigoted, yet still strong in their conviction. There are some who go from what you described to shaky beliefs, to eventual atheism. Just like people can go from fundie Catholic to pagan, from agnostic to born-again Christian. It's a billion shades of gray, not a hard-coded "you either have it or you don't" concept.
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@sleepy: it's weird to explain, but i've seen atheists motivated by something i call Faith (with the capital F), like it's a divine pulsion. i've seen it in some curates or other church officials, like they really do believe what they preach. someone who is profoundly devout, but not bigoted. i've seen a lot of the reverse (me included) who can't grasp that. a physical impossibility to manifest those feelings and that ardour. it's not tied to religion, either. kind of an unshakeable, unchangeable thing. like being left-handed, or having blue eyes. you can't do anything about it, you have it or you don't. it's pretty cool to see it in action, really stimulating, makes you feel giddy, almost. hell, i feel awesome for them, but i'm wowwed by things i can't do/ perceive.
fair enough, as i said, i have a lot of trouble explaining it. it all boils down if i can pin down what "Faith" is and convey what i think it is in an easy to understand definition. all the examples you described are found, of course, but i have to remark upon your bigot. sure, fred phelps might have faith (always hard to tell with calvinists), but i'm not sure the rest of the wbc has it. therein lies the difference, but i've yet to explain it adequately. i'll keep working on it. :)
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Y'know, I keep reading the title of this thread and getting the urge to answer it with "Call yourself whatever you want, you crazy protestant bastard".
That is all.
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Y'know, I keep reading the title of this thread and getting the urge to answer it with "Call yourself whatever you want, you crazy protestant bastard".
That is all.
Well, now that that's over, what say we go back to my place for a bowl of my favorite cereal, Count Choc- *gets head chopped off by sociopathic Catholic priest*
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Thank you for the feedback, folks. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. I've decided to just call myself an agnostic atheist. Guess it's time for me to buy some of those bumper stickers that piss off the fundies.
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Thank you for the feedback, folks. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. I've decided to just call myself an agnostic atheist. Guess it's time for me to buy some of those bumper stickers that piss off the fundies.
You should call yourself ScrappyB.