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The whole story of Adam and Eve does not make sense as a moral lesson. Simply neither Adam nor Eve had 'knowledge of good or evil' until they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Both of them were innocent, both in the sense of not being guilty of a crime or sin but also in the sense of being naive. They were supremely naive as they had no knowledge of right and wrong. God lies to them and tells them the fruit will kill them when it will not. It also shows the Lord as being either not omniscient (not even having the basic forethought of knowing that if you put some fruit in the garden and forbid it, they will eat it -maybe leave the tree out of the garden) or being a massive dick by punishing them for something he knew they would do.

I have to say it was only later interpretations which identified the serpent in the garden with Satan (or the Devil) - the Satan in Job being the more usual Satan when these were written. The serpent seems really to be a good guy, like a Promethean character.

Well put.

I hate that we will likely never argue about morals.

You have likely read that the Jews see Original Virtue and elevation of man in Eden while Christianity reversed the moral of the story to our fall. A fall they sing about by calling Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

No sin would have derailed Yahweh's plan. A catch 22.

Regards
DL


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I don't know enough about Multiverse theory to know whether or not we live in the only possible world/reality. I think my point of view differs in that I don't believe that everything has been created nor do I see a reason why it should be.

Be there things we still do not know, like a multiverse, does not negate the veracity of what I put.

That logic and reason stands on it's own and is irrefutable scientifically or religiously.

If it could be refuted, I would not see it as the truth.

Regards
DL



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Politics and Government / Re: Best Political Cartoons
« Last post by davedan on July 30, 2021, 01:48:08 am »
I guess Garrison knows what tossing salad refers to as well:

(click to show/hide)
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I don't know enough about Multiverse theory to know whether or not we live in the only possible world/reality. I think my point of view differs in that I don't believe that everything has been created nor do I see a reason why it should be.
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The whole story of Adam and Eve does not make sense as a moral lesson. Simply neither Adam nor Eve had 'knowledge of good or evil' until they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Both of them were innocent, both in the sense of not being guilty of a crime or sin but also in the sense of being naive. They were supremely naive as they had no knowledge of right and wrong. God lies to them and tells them the fruit will kill them when it will not. It also shows the Lord as being either not omniscient (not even having the basic forethought of knowing that if you put some fruit in the garden and forbid it, they will eat it -maybe leave the tree out of the garden) or being a massive dick by punishing them for something he knew they would do.

I have to say it was only later interpretations which identified the serpent in the garden with Satan (or the Devil) - the Satan in Job being the more usual Satan when these were written. The serpent seems really to be a good guy, like a Promethean character.
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But telling Yahweh where to stick his Ark simply results in you drowning. Which I guess is no loss if you are a gnostic in the sense of believing that the entirety of the material universe is flawed and the creation of the Demiurge and the only way to return to the divine spark is through enlightenment at death.

Personally I like living. I suspect I would probably be freaked out about having something that doesn't exist threaten the planet with something which couldn't physically happen. I assume that once I told Yahweh that the story was a metaphor and wasn't literally possible he would relax.

But I guess the flood story is just one of the many stories in the bible where God doesn't look so great to put among the rest, like the story of adam and eve, Exodus, the binding of Isaac or the book of Job.

Thanks for this.

I see that you know a bit of our Gnostic Christian myths.

Myths that we do not take literally and were just written to put against the Christian myth, before Christianity went stupid and started to read their myths literally.

Add to your knowledge with the truth of our beliefs, all myths aside, given that we hold no supernatural beliefs and base our beliefs on nature.

See if you can look that way.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it;  cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
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The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL


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Adam sinned, not Eve. Why did Yahweh punish an innocent Eve?

Be you a believer or not, your life has been affected by the mainstream religions and the myth of Adam and Eve. It is the source of Christian homophobia and misogyny.

There are many strange things in the myth of Adam and Eve.
Was Adam born alone or first?
If Adam was created in God’s image and likeness, who is woman modeled after?
Satan is depicted in part as a woman.
Who was she modeled on and why female? Likely because of evolution and women being men’s biological prize.

In law, to be punished, one must be shown to have evil intent or an evil mind. Latin, Men’s Rea.

This is what human justice is based on.

Was Eve innocent, given that she had no evil intent?

Regards
DL
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: Are there active members here?
« Last post by Gnostic Christian on July 29, 2021, 08:14:57 pm »
Thanks guys.

A shame that modernization is killing the mainstream religions.

Many of these places are quiet from lack of apologists for religions.

Regards
DL
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Politics and Government / Re: Best Political Cartoons
« Last post by Cloud3514 on July 26, 2021, 03:32:29 am »
Of course it's not surprising in any sense of the word that Garrison is corncobbing over this. I don't believe for a second that he was missing the point intentionally. There's creative liberties and then there's reading something as literally the exact opposite of what the thing is saying.
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Politics and Government / Re: Best Political Cartoons
« Last post by Askold on July 26, 2021, 01:37:11 am »
So again, Garrison is a moron with delusions of grandieur.



When you bend a well known metaphor like that, you should know that people will not understand what you mean with it. Especially since your "I am totally doing this intentionally" explanation was separate from the cartoon and thus most people did not see it.
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