Author Topic: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington  (Read 431898 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3375 on: May 31, 2020, 04:55:51 am »
Germany also has a history of grand coalitions. It would probably take the AfD winning an outright majority of the second vote to form government; my guess is that the CDU/CSU, SPD, FDP and Greens would rather form a government with Die Linke than let the AfD anywhere near power. (And they don't especially want to form government with Die Linke, probably, but Die Linke is part of the government in Berlin, Bremen and Thuringia anyway alongside the SPD and Greens.)

EDIT: As for AfD existing, they serve as a useful net to catch all the anti-Semites and other such nutcases who can be kicked out of the mainstream parties and left to rot at ~12% in the Bundestag while the rational people run the country.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 04:57:23 am by dpareja »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Id82

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3376 on: May 31, 2020, 09:53:08 am »
Quote
Weren't you against authoritarian libertarianism just a few days ago?

I am against authoritarian libertarianism. The point I'm making is that if this is the bed that Republicans and conservatives have chosen to lie in, than they can't cry when they realize that it can go both ways. They love an unchecked free market so much but hate it when it's used against them because they're hypocrites.

Quote
Not to mention how Twitter doesn't apply its rules rules consistently, and sometimes censors and cracks down on completely innocuous stuff, like their recent suspension of Imam Tawhidi for sharing an anti-terrorism cartoon.

Ok? There's no law that says twitter has to be consistent. They're free to do with they're business as they want.

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And again, I feel like you're misunderstanding my positions. I'm not a conservative and I'm against corporate personhood.

You could've fooled me.

Quote
There's a Twitter alternative called Gab that's run by groypers, and as you can probably imagine, it has a strong hard-right bias that tends to manifest as having double standards against left-wingers. If it were Gab that were the ubiquitous social media site, rather than Twitter, would you still be against the government forcing social media sites to choose between abiding by the first amendment and keeping their safe harbor protections?

Fox news is the most watched 24 hour news network. Conservatives have a strong stranglehold on talk radio. They use their platforms to spew hate and disinformation all day everyday. They're highly influential and you could argue that they control the narrative on the daily political discourse. I hate this fact but they're free to do this because it's how they want to run their business. The left hates them but you don't see them having toddler temper tantrums like Trump when they censor or edit left wing talking points. If Gab was the number one influencers on social media which thankfully it is not. Than they are free to decide what they want on their platform. Just like Fox.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 09:56:10 am by Id82 »
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Offline Vanto

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3377 on: May 31, 2020, 06:31:28 pm »
AfD? Those jokers are never going to win an election of any sort of note. They'll scrape for provinces and claw for mayoral wins, but they're never going to have a winning share in the actual government. And they know it.

As for Fidesz, Hungary is basically a dictatorship by now and not reflective of the EU in general. They're ruled over by a gang of fanatical Christian despots that probably think by now that electricity is a sin. And Fidesz is the forefront of that. They were recently pointed out to not exactly be a real Democracy.

You're pointing out a few outstanding examples to try and make the EU countries seem worse than they really are. If it were up to me, I'd kick out Hungary from the EU and put so many sanctions on them they'd freefall into oblivion. And AfD has no business existing.

You're right, Fidez is an outlier. But AfD is not. Right-wing extremists are getting more numerous and influential all over Europe. More and more Europeans are in favor of not just changes in immigration policy, but outright expelling people based on their ethnic/racial group, regardless of citizenship status or criminal record.

Do you honestly believe that hate speech laws would have stopped the Nazis from coming to power?

Germany also has a history of grand coalitions. It would probably take the AfD winning an outright majority of the second vote to form government; my guess is that the CDU/CSU, SPD, FDP and Greens would rather form a government with Die Linke than let the AfD anywhere near power. (And they don't especially want to form government with Die Linke, probably, but Die Linke is part of the government in Berlin, Bremen and Thuringia anyway alongside the SPD and Greens.)

EDIT: As for AfD existing, they serve as a useful net to catch all the anti-Semites and other such nutcases who can be kicked out of the mainstream parties and left to rot at ~12% in the Bundestag while the rational people run the country.


That's basically what a lot of people used to say about the Sweden Democrats, but now they're part of mainstream Swedish politics, so you'll have to pardon me if I don't share your optimism.

Quote
Weren't you against authoritarian libertarianism just a few days ago?

I am against authoritarian libertarianism. The point I'm making is that if this is the bed that Republicans and conservatives have chosen to lie in, than they can't cry when they realize that it can go both ways. They love an unchecked free market so much but hate it when it's used against them because they're hypocrites.

Quote
Not to mention how Twitter doesn't apply its rules rules consistently, and sometimes censors and cracks down on completely innocuous stuff, like their recent suspension of Imam Tawhidi for sharing an anti-terrorism cartoon.

Ok? There's no law that says twitter has to be consistent. They're free to do with they're business as they want.

Quote
And again, I feel like you're misunderstanding my positions. I'm not a conservative and I'm against corporate personhood.

You could've fooled me.

Quote
There's a Twitter alternative called Gab that's run by groypers, and as you can probably imagine, it has a strong hard-right bias that tends to manifest as having double standards against left-wingers. If it were Gab that were the ubiquitous social media site, rather than Twitter, would you still be against the government forcing social media sites to choose between abiding by the first amendment and keeping their safe harbor protections?

Fox news is the most watched 24 hour news network. Conservatives have a strong stranglehold on talk radio. They use their platforms to spew hate and disinformation all day everyday. They're highly influential and you could argue that they control the narrative on the daily political discourse. I hate this fact but they're free to do this because it's how they want to run their business. The left hates them but you don't see them having toddler temper tantrums like Trump when they censor or edit left wing talking points. If Gab was the number one influencers on social media which thankfully it is not. Than they are free to decide what they want on their platform. Just like Fox.



If it were only the "private companies can do whatever the fuck they want" types, I could at least laugh at them getting what they asked for. But as I've said, it's not.

And yes, it is the law that Twitter has to be consistent if they want to be considered a platform and entitled to safe harbor protections. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

Look, I'm trying not to make assumptions about your politics (and I apologize if I have), so I don't think it's too much to expect that you return the favor.

Well, at least you're consistent in applying this to all companies, regardless of their politics. Maybe we have more in common than I thought.

EDIT: I just realized I got you confused with DarkPhoenix, and I'm sorry about that. God, I'm an idiot sometimes.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 07:03:31 pm by Vanto »
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3378 on: May 31, 2020, 07:00:49 pm »
Did Sweden have Germany's history of grand coalitions, though?

(And yes, I'm aware that Austria did have that history--more of one, if anything--and it still happened there anyway.)
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Vanto

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3379 on: May 31, 2020, 07:04:16 pm »
Did Sweden have Germany's history of grand coalitions, though?

(And yes, I'm aware that Austria did have that history--more of one, if anything--and it still happened there anyway.)

That's a good quesstion. I don't know.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3380 on: May 31, 2020, 10:11:43 pm »
The Nazis came to power in a different age from this, with drastically different circumstances, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. We're not talking about stopping the Nazis from coming to power. We're talking about how much better things would be with hate speech laws.

Your citing of these parties also indicates the Perfectionist fallacy, that if something doesn't work perfectly one hundred percent of the time there's no reason to have it.
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Offline Vanto

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3381 on: May 31, 2020, 11:14:48 pm »
The Nazis came to power in a different age from this, with drastically different circumstances, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. We're not talking about stopping the Nazis from coming to power. We're talking about how much better things would be with hate speech laws.

Your citing of these parties also indicates the Perfectionist fallacy, that if something doesn't work perfectly one hundred percent of the time there's no reason to have it.

Are you afraid to answer my question?

I'm not talking about something that's not working perfectly, I'm talking about something that's not working at all.

On a related note, Twitter seems to have started fact-checking more consistently. This feels like a desperate Hail Mary to stop the government from coming down on them, and I'm not sure how much we should trust social media sites to determine what's true, but at least things look like they're changing for the better.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3382 on: June 01, 2020, 02:00:23 am »
The Nazis came to power in a different age from this, with drastically different circumstances, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. We're not talking about stopping the Nazis from coming to power. We're talking about how much better things would be with hate speech laws.

Your citing of these parties also indicates the Perfectionist fallacy, that if something doesn't work perfectly one hundred percent of the time there's no reason to have it.

Are you afraid to answer my question?

I'm not talking about something that's not working perfectly, I'm talking about something that's not working at all.

On a related note, Twitter seems to have started fact-checking more consistently. This feels like a desperate Hail Mary to stop the government from coming down on them, and I'm not sure how much we should trust social media sites to determine what's true, but at least things look like they're changing for the better.

I do not know if they could stop the fucking Nazis from coming to power, and I also don't know why this is relevant to the greater conversation here. You introduced this whole "could hate speech legislation stop the Nazis" thing just so you could continue making an argument that hate speech laws do not work, when they very obviously do.
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Offline Vanto

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3383 on: June 01, 2020, 05:26:04 pm »
The Nazis came to power in a different age from this, with drastically different circumstances, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. We're not talking about stopping the Nazis from coming to power. We're talking about how much better things would be with hate speech laws.

Your citing of these parties also indicates the Perfectionist fallacy, that if something doesn't work perfectly one hundred percent of the time there's no reason to have it.

Are you afraid to answer my question?

I'm not talking about something that's not working perfectly, I'm talking about something that's not working at all.

On a related note, Twitter seems to have started fact-checking more consistently. This feels like a desperate Hail Mary to stop the government from coming down on them, and I'm not sure how much we should trust social media sites to determine what's true, but at least things look like they're changing for the better.

I do not know if they could stop the fucking Nazis from coming to power, and I also don't know why this is relevant to the greater conversation here. You introduced this whole "could hate speech legislation stop the Nazis" thing just so you could continue making an argument that hate speech laws do not work, when they very obviously do.

For your sake, I hope you don't have money riding on that.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3384 on: June 01, 2020, 07:23:40 pm »
Trump's trying to declare himself dictator.

Ironbite-just thought you'd all like to know.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3385 on: June 01, 2020, 11:16:55 pm »
Basically telling the Governors to impose martial law, or he will.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Vanto

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3386 on: June 01, 2020, 11:42:16 pm »
Hmm... are there other options that might work better?
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3387 on: June 01, 2020, 11:46:45 pm »
Than imposing martial law? Sure. Haul every police officer who's killed a black guy into court, give them an actual trial with jurors who don't automatically believe that cops can do no wrong and judges who don't throw out evidence like "You're fucked" being on the side of the murderer's rifle, and chuck their asses in prison.

Then pass an actual economic sustenance and recovery plan for COVID that doesn't just read as "hope you like shopping at Wal-Mart, Amazon and Costco because everyone else is going to go out of business" and "hope you like sleeping on the street because you aren't making rent/paying your mortgage for the foreseeable future" and maybe you might start to have an abatement of the chaos.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3388 on: June 01, 2020, 11:50:34 pm »
Hmm... are there other options that might work better?

Are you suggesting that martial law is the best option?
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Offline Vanto

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #3389 on: June 02, 2020, 12:38:56 am »
Than imposing martial law? Sure. Haul every police officer who's killed a black guy into court, give them an actual trial with jurors who don't automatically believe that cops can do no wrong and judges who don't throw out evidence like "You're fucked" being on the side of the murderer's rifle, and chuck their asses in prison.

Then pass an actual economic sustenance and recovery plan for COVID that doesn't just read as "hope you like shopping at Wal-Mart, Amazon and Costco because everyone else is going to go out of business" and "hope you like sleeping on the street because you aren't making rent/paying your mortgage for the foreseeable future" and maybe you might start to have an abatement of the chaos.

Second part, I can see where you're coming from, though I think easing the lockdowns might be an overall better idea. But the first part has a pretty glaring problem right off the bat (not that I don't appreciate the sentiment). The cops involved have been fired, and Chauvin has been charged (though I'm pretty frustrated that the others haven't been charged yet, AFAIK, and I've signed the petition calling for charges against them). They might end up getting off (and I'll be angry if they do unless some really convincing evidence of their innocence turns up, which I doubt it will), but we don't know that yet. I'm not sure if the riots started before or after Chauvin and his asshole buddies were fired, but either way, it doesn't look good for your idea.

Are the rioters wrong to be angry about what happened? Of course not, I'm furious too, and I think Chauvin's apologists should experience getting their necks knelt on for 10 minutes and see how good they feel. Hell, I'll volunteer to help them experience it. But why should I assume that the first part of your solution would do anything, considering the timing of events?

Hmm... are there other options that might work better?

Are you suggesting that martial law is the best option?

Not necessarily, I just want to make sure I know what other options are available. If it has to be done, it has to be done, but it should only be done if 1. a certain threshold has been passed and 2. it's the most viable option. Should I have to choose between martial law and complete, out of control havoc, I know which I'm gonna pick.
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