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Author Topic: Democratic Primaries Thread  (Read 31088 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2020, 11:20:03 pm »
At an earlier time in the race, I would've said Warren dropping out would definitely help Sanders. I'm not at all certain of that now; I think it will be at best a wash for Sanders.

The one bright spot is that it means the debates are one-on-one, Sanders vs Biden, so they can really get into it with each other.

As for Gabbard, she's the best argument both for and against the US having an electoral system more conducive to a multi-party system.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2020, 12:08:11 am »
It's kind of amazing how a few months of baselessly calling Warren a snake, an establishment shill, corporatist, a hypocrite and harassing her supporters does nothing for your cause. Whodathunk!

You can tell a LOT about a candidate based on their supporters. And Sanders supporters make him look like a stubborn, shortsighted old man with a messiah complex. And, yeah, that's a pretty damn accurate description.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2020, 10:08:34 am »
If Biden gets the nomination, a portion of Sanders supporters will vote for Trump while many of the others will stay home and cry.

If Sanders gets the nomination, I doubt that many of Biden supporters would think that Trump is preferable so they'll still vote blue.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2020, 10:45:13 am »
Giving in to #BernieOrElse is not conducive to sound, healthy governance.

EDIT: In fact, quite possibly the best argument against #BernieOrElse was given by the person whose legacy quite a few Sanders supporters claim to be carrying on.

http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/od2ndst.html

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We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 10:53:10 am by dpareja »
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Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2020, 11:07:01 pm »
I've stayed out of US electoral politics on this board before because my political compass points solidly to a direction that would make many Americans say "Sanders supporter." Frankly I'm not but mostly because I don't think Sanders is the best standard bearer for that kind of politics. He's a cranky old, white dude who's incredibly rigid in his thinking who can't expand his base beyond a small hard core of supporters. That might work for Trump because the other Republicans find him convenient for their agenda even if they secretly hate him, it'll never work for Sanders' base because the DNC finds him inconvenient at best. That said, as a leftist and a socialist I worry about folks who share those viewpoints not understanding the point of tactical voting or tactical speech. Voting for the least worst result isn't just sensible, it's crucial. These two paragraphs from a Guardian opinion piece summed it up nicely.

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What should Sanders do now? Luckily, his interests going forward align with those of the party – if only he can be persuaded to see it that way. So far, Sanders has failed to expand his appeal beyond the party’s left wing. His attempt to turn the primary into a referendum on “the Democratic establishment” has backfired, with many voters showing that they are more comfortable lining up behind “the establishment” than Sanders’ insurgency. If he has any chance of bouncing back, Sanders needs to quit the divisive rhetoric and begin appealing to different wings of the party. This would not only be strategically wise in the primary – it would also show the sort of flexibility required to win in November.

Even if Sanders ultimately loses the primary, the beginning of a process of reconciliation will go a long way to helping Democrats beat Trump. Biden is a flawed candidate, and one of his main problems in November will be his difficulty convincing the left wing of the party to turn out to vote for him. For prominent leftwing figures to intensify rhetoric implying that the nomination is somehow being unfairly stolen from Sanders by “the establishment” is to recklessly endanger the party’s chances in November. If such rhetoric was a viable path to a Sanders’ candidacy and perhaps to victory against Trump, it was perhaps defensible. But it is clear that it no longer is.

I'm coming at this not from the view of supporting Sanders but from understanding why supporting a centrist like Biden, who supported the Iraq war and continues to support a neoliberal economic agenda might grate if you come from the left wing but I'd be happier if my fellow lefties knew when it was time to make a tactical re evaluation of the situation. Supporting Biden is realpolitik, it's tactical, it's not as sexy as idealism but sometimes you don't have the luxury of idealism. If you have to choose between a Fascist and a neoliberal, opting out is no longer a choice. You have a moral duty to vote for, and yes, support the neoliberal. In cases like that not voting is as good as voting for the Fascist, I just really hope that left wing voices in the US can convince those left and on the fence including the 'Bernie bros' of that because if we see a repeat of 2016 it will give Trump the message that he can push the authoritarian envelope further than he has, and that is terrifying. 
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2020, 11:47:42 pm »
My dislike of Sanders has nothing to do with his policies. I was a Warren supporter, after all. It has everything to do with his inability to compromise and his absolutely-second-only-to-Trump AWFUL supporters. I would love for his ideas to become reality, but the problem with that is not only does he ONLY have ideas, he is so damn stubborn that he has to have it EXACTLY as he says or not at all. He would rather let the world burn to the ground than make concessions to make progress towards his ideal policies. It's shortsighted and pretending that he will somehow be able to walk into the Oval Office, snap his fingers and make Medicare for All happen is naive, at best.

It's not that Medicare for All, or some other kind of universal healthcare are impossible, but they aren't going to happen in the way he wants them to. That's just not how politics work.

And I'll spare you another rant about why Bernie Bros are fuck awful.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2020, 12:53:22 am »
Populists thrive on that message.

That if only you give them power, they'll snap their fingers and all your problems will go away immediately.

This never happens.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2020, 04:40:04 pm »
Place your bets, folks. What will the Bernie Bros excuse be for losing today?

My money's on DNC conspiracy theories.
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Offline Id82

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2020, 06:44:05 pm »
How the coronavirus is a false flag used to distract voters from voting for Bernie Sanders.

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2020, 09:04:18 pm »
Old people are voting and young people aren't.

EDIT: As for COVID-19, I don't know if any US states are doing this, but Israel literally had special polling places so that people quarantined due to the disease could still vote in their election.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 09:17:34 pm by dpareja »
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Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Id82

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2020, 10:31:38 pm »
The US accommodate voters? Are you crazy? What of those voters might vote Democrat?
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2020, 10:39:17 pm »
Quote from: Id82 on March 10, 2020, 10:31:38 pm
The US accommodate voters? Are you crazy? What of those voters might vote Democrat?

One objection, meant in all seriousness, that I heard to the notion of just having a straight-up popular vote for President is that states and campaigns would just work to suppress the other side's voters, since that's easier than actually turning out your own supporters.

Coming, of course, from a Republican (or ex-Republican now that Trump is in charge of that party).
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Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2020, 11:12:42 pm »
So, it looks like Jill Stein has started her traditional grifting campaign by repeating Bernie Bro rhetoric to siphon votes away from Biden in the general election. Not sure what she's trying to accomplish this year since she's not running apparently.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 11:14:17 pm by Cloud3514 »
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2020, 11:28:36 pm »
Quote from: Cloud3514 on March 10, 2020, 11:12:42 pm
So, it looks like Jill Stein has started her traditional grifting campaign by repeating Bernie Bro rhetoric to siphon votes away from Biden in the general election. Not sure what she's trying to accomplish this year since she's not running apparently.

Dr. Stein's shtick at this point is "if you keep electing moderate Democrats the Republicans will get crazier and crazier and the next one of them who wins will be even more insane than Trump".
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Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2020, 11:31:05 pm »
Stein's shtick is "give me MORE ass to kiss, Mr. Putin! I can do better than Mr. Trump!"

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