Author Topic: Democratic Primaries Thread  (Read 30659 times)

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Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #150 on: April 01, 2020, 07:57:27 pm »
Remember, AOC will be just barely old enough to be President come January 2025.

AOC revealed that she became disillusioned with the Bernie campaign because of Joe Rogan and Bernie's refusal to try and reach out to the rest of the Dem party, and so she started to lower the number of appearances she made for promoting him.  The dirtbag left has thus turned on her, blaming her for the failure of the Sanders campaign over the last few weeks, because they're sexist pricks.

All I'm seeing looking this up is shit like The Blaze (Glenn Beck's rag) and National review (which has been a rag since before I was even alive). So I don't trust its that big of a deal and feels like they're looking to sow division. It's sad if that's all it takes for her to back off because Bernie didn't even need to change any of his progressive positions to get Rogan's vote, Rogan struggles with LGBT issues but he's hardly as much of a reactionary as a few of his guests are. I love her still though b/c fuck in-fighting.

Also I dislike how some people on here are talking like Bernie supporters are cultists or that CTH is acshually this super bad thing. It feels like I'm reading a right wing reddit when I read those posts.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #151 on: April 01, 2020, 08:50:45 pm »
If Sanders supporters were a cult, and Sanders a cult leader, they'd all have voted for Clinton in 2016 and they'd all vote for Biden this year. They didn't and won't.

Still did so in higher proportions than Clinton supporters did for Obama in 2008.
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Offline DarkPhoenix

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #152 on: April 02, 2020, 09:15:25 am »
Remember, AOC will be just barely old enough to be President come January 2025.

AOC revealed that she became disillusioned with the Bernie campaign because of Joe Rogan and Bernie's refusal to try and reach out to the rest of the Dem party, and so she started to lower the number of appearances she made for promoting him.  The dirtbag left has thus turned on her, blaming her for the failure of the Sanders campaign over the last few weeks, because they're sexist pricks.

All I'm seeing looking this up is shit like The Blaze (Glenn Beck's rag) and National review (which has been a rag since before I was even alive). So I don't trust its that big of a deal and feels like they're looking to sow division. It's sad if that's all it takes for her to back off because Bernie didn't even need to change any of his progressive positions to get Rogan's vote, Rogan struggles with LGBT issues but he's hardly as much of a reactionary as a few of his guests are. I love her still though b/c fuck in-fighting.

Also I dislike how some people on here are talking like Bernie supporters are cultists or that CTH is acshually this super bad thing. It feels like I'm reading a right wing reddit when I read those posts.

Here: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/3/30/1932714/-Alexandria-Ocasio-Cortez-breaks-with-Bernie-because-she-can-do-math-and-30-doesn-t-win-anything

And Chapo Trap House is awful.  Someone on Bernie's campaign should have condemned their rhetoric, but no one did.  Instead, high level Bernie supporters appeared on the show...

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #153 on: April 02, 2020, 02:43:53 pm »
I have yet to see clear evidence that the Bernie Bro thing is distinct from other passionate support or that they are more sexist than other people of the same age and gender. Before them Obama Boys were a thing, you know - another candidate who went against the party machine's favourite and rhetorically outflanked her from the left and whose supporters were targeted with the same accusations. After all, if you are a woman and dare to have a political opinion you will get sexist harassment. If you are not a white cis-man you get bigoted harassment.* Since you don't encounter the harassment the people on the other side do, it's easy to perceive that the other side is worse. Anecdotally, if you are a vocal woman who supported Clinton in 2016 but Sanders in 2020 the harassers have changed but the harassment is subjectively similar. Also, if your job is to construct political narratives it is easy to use this very real harassment to build a cynical attack against the other side and your position means you have a large audience and a lot of resources to invest in this.

There is another comparison with 2008 campaigns to be made to see how good faith the criticism against Sanders is. He is being bombarded with demands to drop out and has been accused of hanging on for too long in 2016. In 2016, he maintained his campaign as a leverage in negotiations about the party platform and after dropping out campaigned actively for Clinton. In 2008, Clinton hung on until the end and her supporters formed PUMA: People United Means Action or Party Unity My Ass; some of whom voted for McCain to give Clinton a new chance in 2012. If I give the benefit of a doubt to the people attacking Sanders about this while giving Clinton and her supporters a pass I'd say that the bitterness wasn't there in 2008 because Obama ended up winning while Clinton lost in 2016. While there might be some of this involved, I'm more convinced that political operatives are acting according to the incentives of their positions in the system and as rational and competent professionals are using situations at hand to craft narratives that most likely keep them in power. I don't want to demonize these people, I want the power structures and incentives to be changed so that their skills are used to promote better causes.

One thing to remember is that the Democratic Party is not a leftist organization. While they have leftist members the current politics of the party structure lean center-right at best. The party machine is either too incompetent to push the Overton window to the left or unwilling to do so. I am leaning to the latter since that's what the systemic incentives and concrete actions seem to suggest but in the end it matters only little, the power dynamics must change either way. This is a huge problem to me from a global perspective: there is no effective counterweight to the right-wing zealots of the Republican Party or an effective power to resist them dragging the Overton window further to the right which directly reflects to USA's intertwined foreign and economic policies. More leftist policies would also greatly benefit the American people whom I care about as fellow human beings.

How to change an institution that resists it? Create an outside power base to provide support and pressure. Promote grassroots activism and union power, spread class consciousness and empower the working class. This strategy is a major reason why I like Sanders and it has a chance to bear fruit independently of his success - another even more important one is that he recognizes the necessity of global leftist co-operation. He stumbled in a situation in 2016 where he gained actual power on the national level and has used it to build something that if it survives can bear fruit in the future. Ironically, this primary has shown that a lot of the original support that gave this power were rural white anti-Hillary voters who don't actually care about him or his agenda but he has been able to mobilize previous non-voters - most noticeably young people of all races and latinos in general. The more conservative, older Democratic voters have just been mobilized by the anti-Trump sentiment in greater numbers and they were successfully united behind Biden. While Sanders has shown that he is not the most effective of leaders - neither skilled enough negotiator to unite leftist institutions nor machiavellian enough to destroy his opponents - I respect him for the movement he has created.

*As a side note one must also account for the trolls. Both organized and spontaneous trolls will join in such harassment amplifying it to create division or just for lulz.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 02:45:37 pm by SCarpelan »

Offline DarkPhoenix

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #154 on: April 02, 2020, 03:49:17 pm »
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/us/politics/bernie-sanders-chapo-trap-house.html

I have no idea what category these maniacs fall into, but I don't think their goal is dragging the Dem party anywhere...

Quote
The people in the crowd were angry, and “Chapo Trap House” wanted them to stay that way. The five hosts of the popular socialist podcast wanted everyone to know they had all been lied to. About everything.

The media they consumed was fake news aimed to distract them from the only war worth fighting: the class war. Politesse, civility, even pleasure — those were tools of the neoliberal oppressor. The right answer is rage.

“That joy,” the Chapo co-host Will Menaker said to the crowd gathered in Iowa City on the eve of the Iowa caucus. “That’s good but it’s not as good a motivator when you’re really going to war as spite.”

“Let the hate feed you,” the co-host Amber A’Lee Frost added as the audience roared.

And it does. Especially toward other Democrats.

Supporters of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. are “gelatinous 100-year-olds.”

Former Mayor Pete Buttigieg is “a bloodless asexual.”

“The gayest thing about him is he descends from an ethnic group that’s like a little toy dog,” Ms. A’Lee Frost said.

When Senator Elizabeth Warren’s name came up, the crowd made the sound of a snake hissing. She had accused Senator Bernie Sanders of saying that a woman could not beat President Trump, and so she is a snake.

“Yes, my sssssoldiers,” Mr. Menaker said.

Former Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s run appalls them. “Beat him so badly that this midget gremlin won’t even have a shot even with a trillion dollars,” Mr. Menaker said.

“Kill him,” someone shouted from the audience. These were jokes, of course. Everyone was laughing.

As Mr. Sanders rises in the polls and claims strong showings in early states, a new set of media stars is on the rise, too. Leading the pack are the hosts of “Chapo Trap House,” the Pied Pipers of the candidate’s online movement.

In their rowdy, vulgar weekly podcast, they are stoking the fires of a political insurgency led by their 78-year-old idol. The man stands for the movement, the movement is the man.

“Our boy Bernie” they call him.

The fivesome of “Chapo Trap House" are not the only bards of the new American left — there is “Red Scare” and another whose name cannot be printed — but they have led the way for a movement that together generates millions of dollars a year. They are on their way to becoming the socialist’s answer to right-wing shock jock radio. Their primary targets, in evidence at that show in Iowa, are not the Republican Party or even Mr. Trump but rather centrist liberals, whom they see as the major obstacle to a workers’ revolution.

In blurring occasionally violent humor, jovial community meetups and radical politics, they are the Tea Party reborn for progressives, and for their fans the appeal is in a bawdy offensive balance to cautious mainstream liberal politics.

They are known collectively as the Dirtbag Left, a shorthand they embrace that winkingly dispenses with any notion of liberal purity or inclusion, a defense mechanism that doubles as a nickname.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #155 on: April 02, 2020, 06:52:14 pm »
Chapo are shock jocks who use vulgarity as a political tool but are entertainers, not political leaders. Combine Howard Stern's vulgarity, Jon Stewart's political comedy, and socialist politics and you get them. Add dudebro ironic memers and you get their fans. While they have coined the term Dirtbag Left them and their fans are just one crude expression of those particular politics and even they are not actual bigots. What I know of them is based mostly on their appearances outside their own podcast (their vulgar humor is not my cup of tea) but I took time to do some research after reading this thread since the reactions here were so extreme. And yes, they do cross the line sometimes. Namely, when using humor that makes light of sexual violence which they have apologised for. Otherwise I don't see bigotry, only vulgarity that occasionally crosses a line like such humor has a risk of doing. The instances of rape humor I condemn unequivocally but that is not the totality of their content and it seems to be limited to few instances that they have apologised for and donated to charity as a gesture of repentance.

Which one is worse? Installing and defending racist policies that destroy people's lives and probably killed many or making violent shock jokes about a person who has done so? Questioning priorities of liberal politics is at the center of their performance. You can be a bigoted white supremacist (Bloomberg) or a war criminal who has caused thousands of deaths (Bush jr.) and still be an accepted member of high class society but make vulgar, disrespectful jokes and you are a lunatic. I didn't find instances of them promoting violence against a vulnerable group of people or dehumanizing a such a group which is the type of "ironic" humor that encourages bigots to violent acts. While their brand of humor does not appeal to me personally, I think it is ridiculous to compare them to alt-right. And yes, if there is a violent plot or act inspired by them I will reconsider my opinion.

I see Sanders campaign touting Joe Rogan's endorsement as a bigger blunder than the campaign members appearing in Chapo. While Rogan's bigoted views had nothing to do with the endorsement he still is a bigot. Chapo are not as far as I can see.

What is the ideological ground Dirtbag Left stands on? Criticism of the liberal hypocricy and white upper class feminism is an integral part as is the emphasis on class politics. Claiming that they ignore identity politics is a strawman, though, class reductionism is also seen as harmful since class and identity are intertwined. Turning identity politics into a tool for class oppression actually harms vulnerable groups since they are disproportionally working class instead of upper class and class reductionists' blindness to bigotry shuts down minority voices within working class. There is a constructive dialogue among leftist activists (both "Dirtbag Left" and "SJW left") about where is the line on eather side where you start doing more harm than good and how to combine different approaches. The disagreement isn't on goals, it's on tactics.

From a personal experience I can say that lurking around in spaces many of which fall under the definition of Dirtbag Left has taught me about minority issues I was ignorant before; namely those of non-binary and non-passing trans people (and conflicts within trans community). It seems trans rights are a current battleground in the culture wars and the online left seems to have been unified in that fight. Again, there is disagreement about means and long term goals (gender abolition or not?) but the short term goals are common: equal rights for trans people of all kind.

And how do Dirtbag leftists relate to Bernie Sanders? From what I have seen, while they meme about him their feet are on the ground more firmly than I would have expected. Their politics that usually are far to the left of him, so they see him as a figurehead to be used, not an idol to be worshipped. There is not nearly as much gringy fawning about him as a person as there is for example in TYT.

And is Sanders a bigoted class reductionist? Not according to Barbara Smith, a (black, lesbian) feminist scholar who helped coin the term identity politics.

Quote from: Barbara Smith
I am often disheartened, however, to see support for identity politics and intersectionality reduced to buzzwords. I am supporting Bernie Sanders for president because I believe that his campaign and his understanding of politics complements the priorities that women of color defined decades ago.

Edit: Oh, I forgot something important: when it comes to Dirtbag Left and fight around it it's very much an online phenomenon. It is important to note that it is only a part of leftist activism sphere and most of the real work is done offline. Go to an average grassroots activist offline - whether connected to Sanders campaign or not - and there is a good chance that asking about that kind of issues gets you a confused stare.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 08:18:15 pm by SCarpelan »

Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #156 on: April 02, 2020, 08:46:38 pm »
Quoted verbatim, racial slurs and all:

Quote
You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "Nigger"--that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights, and all that stuff. And you're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. ... "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."

--Lee Atwater
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #157 on: April 08, 2020, 11:48:41 am »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #158 on: April 08, 2020, 11:51:41 am »
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #159 on: April 08, 2020, 03:59:34 pm »
You know, I don't think I saw a single Warren supporter declare that they were going to sit out, vote third party or (*shudder*) vote Trump after she dropped out, despite how the Bernie Bros acted towards them. For Sanders supporters? Where the fuck do I even begin?

I do believe that most Sanders supporters will at least be willing to vote pragmatically, even if they won't acknowledge that his lost due to his own failings.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #160 on: April 08, 2020, 04:17:04 pm »
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

They are in the anger phase of coping with the situation. I don't care what they say now, I care what they do when the election comes. If they act at all like in the last election the majority will go to the polls to vote for Biden.

There are real reasons for the pessimism, though. How Biden will do in the campaign against Trump? Biden's declining cognitive capabilities could result in a humiliation in the debate stage and that could make people say fuck this and stay home. Trump attacks any weakness he sees ruthlessly, unlike Biden's primary opponents. Another weakness of Biden are the sexual harassment allegations and the way his family has participated in the systematic corruption (nothing illegal, just taking advantage of the opportunities their position offers). Trump is of course much worse but Democratic voters care more about that than Republicans so if Trump can drag Biden to the same mudpit with him it could also decrease the enthusiasm of Biden's voters.

On the other hand, Covid-19 is a huge uncertainty. The utter incompetence of Trump's administration in dealing with it can kill his voters' enthusiasm in a way that no Democratic strategy could hope for. That is the main lifeline for Biden's presidential hopes. His voters' enthusiasm ratings are horrible according to polls but if Trump's rabid base actually crumbles it is a game changer. It doesn't help Trump if he can get Democratic voters to stay home if his own voters do the same.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #161 on: April 08, 2020, 04:20:07 pm »
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

They are in the anger phase of coping with the situation. I don't care what they say now, I care what they do when the election comes. If they act at all like in the last election the majority will go to the polls to vote for Biden.

I think current estimates are around 85%, which is a touch lower than the estimated 87.5% of Sanders supporters who voted for Clinton (though plenty did stay home--that's the real wildcard).
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #162 on: April 08, 2020, 04:36:41 pm »
I hate having to put it this way, but in the end, it's true - in the political system that we have, a Bernie supporter choosing to sit at home rather than vote for Biden because he's bitter about his primary favorite losing is basically half a vote for Trump. I don't like it but it's the simple facts. I voted for Bernie in the CA primary, and I'm going to vote Biden this November, and that's just the logical thing to do if you don't like Trump.

...Now, Bernie supporters, you do dislike Trump, right?
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Offline DarkPhoenix

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #163 on: April 08, 2020, 04:47:18 pm »
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

They already have websites set up for not voting Dem because "BERNIE LOST!"... And they've got #DemExit trending on Twitter...

Moronic idiots.  If Trump wins again, even if he actually leaves in 4 years (I wouldn't put it past him to try and become King), it'll probably lead to him replacing RBG and Breyer with two more Kavanaughs.  With a 7-2 majority on the Supreme Court, you can forget about Bernie's ENTIRE AGENDA for a generation; they'll declare the whole thing unConstitutional...

Offline davedan

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #164 on: April 08, 2020, 05:22:52 pm »
I would be careful as to how many of those things are genuine. Lot's of these are bots or grifters. Look at the the whole #walkaway movement.