Author Topic: Democratic Primaries Thread  (Read 30713 times)

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Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #165 on: April 08, 2020, 05:32:25 pm »
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

They already have websites set up for not voting Dem because "BERNIE LOST!"... And they've got #DemExit trending on Twitter...

Moronic idiots.  If Trump wins again, even if he actually leaves in 4 years (I wouldn't put it past him to try and become King), it'll probably lead to him replacing RBG and Breyer with two more Kavanaughs.  With a 7-2 majority on the Supreme Court, you can forget about Bernie's ENTIRE AGENDA for a generation; they'll declare the whole thing unConstitutional...

More than a generation. 30-40 years at least.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #166 on: April 08, 2020, 07:34:33 pm »
I've officially lost track of how many Bernie supporters I've seen already diagnosing how the Democrats will respond to a Trump victory as if the election was already over. The sheer lack of self-awareness on how they've pointed to everything except for Sanders himself for Sanders' loss is hypocritical and exactly what I expected.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #167 on: April 08, 2020, 09:20:54 pm »
Just wondering, how many people in Clinton's camp blamed Clinton for her loss?
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #168 on: April 08, 2020, 09:27:51 pm »
I have legit seen dirtbag left folks saying shit like "fucking blacks, they don't know how good they'd have it under a Sanders Presidency. Way to go proving right wing stereotypes!"

At this point, they're just the alt-right with a different paint job.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #169 on: April 08, 2020, 10:23:14 pm »
Just wondering, how many people in Clinton's camp blamed Clinton for her loss?


A fair point. I think the hypocrisy is more the problem than anything.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #170 on: April 08, 2020, 11:29:27 pm »
The hypocrisy runs rampant among all factions in politics. (Stephen Harper, who as Prime Minister put forward 400-page omnibus budget bills, once criticized Jean Chrétien for his government's 40-page omnibus budget bills.) I wonder how many people in Biden's camp will act like Biden was entitled to Sanders' supporters' votes should he lose:

Quote from: Joe Biden
And to Bernie’s supporters: I know that I need to earn your votes. And I know that might take time. But I want you to know that I see you, I hear you, and I understand the urgency of this moment. I hope you'll join us. You're more than welcome: You're needed.

(emphasis mine)

So if Biden gets no votes from Sanders supporters, according to Biden, this is because he didn't earn them.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Skybison

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #171 on: April 08, 2020, 11:50:11 pm »
Speaking for myself, I do believe that Bernie voters owe Biden their vote.  Well no, they don't owe Biden, they owe all the people who would die from loss of healthcare, for racism and violence, from potential needless wars like the one Trump almost started with Iran, from rampant climate change etc if Trump gets reelected.

There are perfectly good reasons to be unhappy that Bernie lost, but not voting Biden is voting Trump.  I agree that the number of bernie supporters who didn't vote for Clinton is blown out of proportion, but given how tight US politics is even a small group can tilt the balance threw action/inaction.

"Politicians have to earn votes" doesn't apply when Nazis are on the march and the apocalypse is around the corner.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #172 on: April 09, 2020, 12:07:46 am »
Speaking for myself, I do believe that Bernie voters owe Biden their vote.  Well no, they don't owe Biden, they owe all the people who would die from loss of healthcare, for racism and violence, from potential needless wars like the one Trump almost started with Iran, from rampant climate change etc if Trump gets reelected.

There are perfectly good reasons to be unhappy that Bernie lost, but not voting Biden is voting Trump.  I agree that the number of bernie supporters who didn't vote for Clinton is blown out of proportion, but given how tight US politics is even a small group can tilt the balance threw action/inaction.

"Politicians have to earn votes" doesn't apply when Nazis are on the march and the apocalypse is around the corner.

If I were Joe Biden, I'd get on the phone to Lawrence Lessig, make sure he'd accept, and then campaign on putting him on the Supreme Court.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #173 on: April 09, 2020, 12:14:35 am »
I maintain that it is massively irresponsible to refuse to vote blue because you can't have your preferred candidate. The game sucks, but we have to play it. I don't like it, either.1
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #174 on: April 09, 2020, 12:29:15 am »
I maintain that it is massively irresponsible to refuse to vote blue because you can't have your preferred candidate. The game sucks, but we have to play it. I don't like it, either.1

As Lawrence O'Donnell noted, the Democratic Party ignores the Left because the Left always votes for them.

It is not an inherently unreasonable position to say, "If you don't support what I have clearly said I want"--whether this is candidate- or policy-based is not relevant--"why should I support what you want?"

And having had it happen twice in my lifetime (though only once when I was old enough to remember) that vote-splitting between two non-conservative parties handed unbridled power to conservatives, and then seeing this used by the less-principled non-conservative party to snag votes away from the more-principled one (because the former has a much larger hard base than the latter), and now seeing that same party quash a clear recommendation by a Parliamentary committee to have a referendum between our current electoral system and a proportional representation system, because that would obviate all their fearmongering that they use to get votes from swing voters... suffice it to say that I really, really sympathize.

(If you look at Canadian federal elections in 2006, 2008 and 2011, the share of the popular vote among parties getting either 5% or electing one member enjoyed by left-wing parties--Liberals, New Democrats, and Greens in the latter two--went from 50.5% in 2006, to 51.8% in 2008, to 53.9% in 2011. But each time the Conservatives got more seats, winning a majority in 2011. Then a bunch of NDP and Green voters went for the Liberals in 2015 because of Justin Trudeau's promise to bring in proportional representation and the realization, once again, that the NDP and Greens can't crack the Liberals' ~18% base... on which he promptly reneged when Parliament didn't recommend the system he wanted, and used the majority those same voters, who voted for him on the promise of proportional representation, had given him to kill any chance at getting proportional representation. Goddammit I despise the Liberal Party, very nearly as much as I despise the Conservative Party.)
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline DarkPhoenix

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #175 on: April 09, 2020, 01:01:22 pm »
(If you look at Canadian federal elections in 2006, 2008 and 2011, the share of the popular vote among parties getting either 5% or electing one member enjoyed by left-wing parties--Liberals, New Democrats, and Greens in the latter two--went from 50.5% in 2006, to 51.8% in 2008, to 53.9% in 2011. But each time the Conservatives got more seats, winning a majority in 2011. Then a bunch of NDP and Green voters went for the Liberals in 2015 because of Justin Trudeau's promise to bring in proportional representation and the realization, once again, that the NDP and Greens can't crack the Liberals' ~18% base... on which he promptly reneged when Parliament didn't recommend the system he wanted, and used the majority those same voters, who voted for him on the promise of proportional representation, had given him to kill any chance at getting proportional representation. Goddammit I despise the Liberal Party, very nearly as much as I despise the Conservative Party.)

I voted for the NDP's in the provincial election, but the fact is the NDP's don't pick up votes because when they actually GET a chance to run things, they tend to fuck it up.  Not as bad as the CPoC (it'd be hard to figure out how to fuck up worse than THAT), but enough that they rarely keep any gains they manage to achieve.  Bob Rae alone likely put Ontario out of reach for them for a generation...

And I don't know if you've noticed, but the problem with a lot of people in the Sanders wing in the US is that they have the same views on compromise as the Republican segment do; that it's the worst possible thing you could do.  Just look at their reaction to Warren's plan to get to M4A... The end result is the same as Bernie's, but because it wasn't one huge step, but a series of steps, they screamed that it was selling out...

This temper tantrum over Bernie bowing out is in fact their view on compromise taken to the candidate level; ie, "Give us the candidate WE demand!"...

Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #176 on: April 09, 2020, 03:34:18 pm »
"People are willing to listen to what you have to say. You just need to step up and vote---"

"BUT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT WANT WANT WANT WANT!!!"
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #177 on: April 09, 2020, 03:59:34 pm »
Some statistical information for the non-voter conversation. In 2016, the nonvoters were not privileged liberals. Instead, they were the underprivileged: poor, young, mostly non-whites.

Quote
Almost half of non-voters in the 2016 presidential election were non-white, even though they compose only one-fourth of the voting population. Even more extreme is the data on class: more than half of non-voters — 56% — are quite poor, making less than $30,000, even though that income group constitutes just over one-fourth of the voting population. The people who choose to vote are disproportionately privileged; those who are non-privileged choose disproportionately not to vote.

These non-voters are whom Sanders campaign targeted with some success. If they don't vote for Biden, it's not because they are privileged and petty. It's because they don't trust either party is interested in improving their lives, Sanders's campaign and policies are what brought them to the voting booth in the first place. For the Democratic party to have a future after the baby boomer generation is gone they need to attract these voters and Sanders showed what type of policies might do that.

Offline DarkPhoenix

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #178 on: April 09, 2020, 04:03:36 pm »
"People are willing to listen to what you have to say. You just need to step up and vote---"

"BUT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT WANT WANT WANT WANT!!!"

Yeah, that's my take on most of this as well.  Bernie doesn't compromise.  His base considers that a strength; "He'll keep fighting for what you DESERVE!"

But politics is mainly about compromise.  The problem with the US right now is that the Right refuses to compromise on anything.  I don't think the same attitude coming from the Left helps.

Bernie has trouble breaking out of his 30% base because he won't compromise, and because his surrogates and supporters won't compromise, and to a lot of people on the outside, that looks a lot like dismissing their concerns...

Some statistical information for the non-voter conversation. In 2016, the nonvoters were not privileged liberals. Instead, they were the underprivileged: poor, young, mostly non-whites.

Quote
Almost half of non-voters in the 2016 presidential election were non-white, even though they compose only one-fourth of the voting population. Even more extreme is the data on class: more than half of non-voters — 56% — are quite poor, making less than $30,000, even though that income group constitutes just over one-fourth of the voting population. The people who choose to vote are disproportionately privileged; those who are non-privileged choose disproportionately not to vote.

These non-voters are whom Sanders campaign targeted with some success. If they don't vote for Biden, it's not because they are privileged and petty. It's because they don't trust either party is interested in improving their lives, Sanders's campaign and policies are what brought them to the voting booth in the first place. For the Democratic party to have a future after the baby boomer generation is gone they need to attract these voters and Sanders showed what type of policies might do that.

I'd say a good portion of that is voter suppression; it works really well on the poor, and we know the Repubs specifically target the black and Latino communities.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #179 on: April 09, 2020, 04:18:25 pm »
There's that portion of the left, mostly the dirtbag left and the "tumblr" left that seems to think they're everyone.

I've legit seen someone pressed on how they could be "everyone" respond with "But I've seen mostly Pro-Bernie Tumblr accounts! We have to represent most of the country."

It's like, do they think Tumblr represents the entirety of the USA?

Then there was the person who said they shouldn't even bother voting any more, because voting is "neocolonialist patriarchal colonizer power structures made to marginalize us".
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