Israeli gay leaders snubbed by Seattlite gay leaders

[Osama bin Bambi]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017771557_israeligays17m.html

Bowing to pressure from some gays outraged by Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, the city of Seattle commission that represents gays canceled a Friday reception at City Hall for a visiting delegation of Israeli gay leaders.

At a heated commission meeting Thursday, a small, vocal group spoke out against the Jewish nation, saying Israel is masking what some call its poor treatment of Palestinians by promoting its positive record on gay rights — a phenomenon that has become known as "pinkwashing."

I get the whole "Israel has a shitty human rights record" thing, but this is the dumbest shit to come out of Seattle that I've ever seen.

[Meshakhad]

Wykked Witch... are you me? Because we seem to agree all the time, we're both Jews living in Washington State...

[Witchyjoshy]

Um...

What do Israeli Gay Rights activists have to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, other than simply being Israeli?

That's stupid and discriminatory and I expected better out of you, Seattle Gay Activists.

[largeham]

I don't see what the problem is.

Zachski, as Wykked quoted, Aguda has been accused of 'pinkwashing', and thereby support the occupation of Palestine by emphasising that LGBT and so on people have it worse off in Palestine than in Israel (in regards to how their sexuality is regarded).

[Meshakhad]

I don't see what the problem is.

Zachski, as Wykked quoted, Aguda has been accused of 'pinkwashing', and thereby support the occupation of Palestine by emphasising that LGBT and so on people have it worse off in Palestine than in Israel (in regards to how their sexuality is regarded).

Depends. Are they using it to say "Israel is right to slaughter Palestinians because we treat gays better" or say "hey, we're not total monsters! We treat gays better than anyone else on the bloody continent!"

[Osama bin Bambi]

I don't see what the problem is.

Zachski, as Wykked quoted, Aguda has been accused of 'pinkwashing', and thereby support the occupation of Palestine by emphasising that LGBT and so on people have it worse off in Palestine than in Israel (in regards to how their sexuality is regarded).

Nowhere in this article did it say that any of the delegates (I don't think they even mentioned Aguda by name) supported the occupation of Palestine. Unless Israeli = Complete Monster now, or did I miss the memo?

This was not supposed to be a forum about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it was supposed to be a forum about how to advance gay rights. Just because they're accused of "pinkwashing" doesn't make it true, and just because Israel has a shitty human rights record doesn't mean that it's suddenly bad to talk about their LGBT rights. Frankly improving either would be a step in the right direction.

But the organizers didn't like the possibility that a vocal minority was going to turn the convention into something it was not (a discussion about Palestine), so they turned the Israeli leaders away.

I'm sorry but that's just discrimination based on nationality. There's "supporting the Palestinians" and then there's just "hating Israelis" and painting them with a broad brush. The latter definitely happened here.

Seriously what was the purpose of this action? Does it benefit the Palestinians in any way? Does it benefit anyone in any way? Or is it just stirring shit for the sake of stirring shit?

[Witchyjoshy]

...What Wykked and Meshakhad said.

[largeham]

It is pinkwashing. By pushing the fact that Israel treats it gays and lesbians better than the rest of the Arab world, it hides the fact that queers had to fight for their rights in Israel, that oppression is still institutionalised. It tries to hide the fact that orthodox Jews are quite homophobic and that the West Bank decriminalised sodomy in the 1950s.

Groups turned away South African sports teams and cultural groups during their Apartheid era, what is so different about this?

[Witchyjoshy]

Gee.  I dunno.

What's wrong with discriminating based on nation?  Could it be... bigotry?

Also, I find it funny that you mention that last part.  I didn't know about that.  And you're right, it isn't any different.  They're both stupid as fuck.

[Diamandahagan]

Gee.  I dunno.

What's wrong with discriminating based on nation?  Could it be... bigotry?

Also, I find it funny that you mention that last part.  I didn't know about that.  And you're right, it isn't any different.  They're both stupid as fuck.

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

[Sylvana]

Gee.  I dunno.

What's wrong with discriminating based on nation?  Could it be... bigotry?

Also, I find it funny that you mention that last part.  I didn't know about that.  And you're right, it isn't any different.  They're both stupid as fuck.

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

If largeham didn't bring it up I would have. The only real difference is that South Africa officially had international sanctions against it. Citizens of South Africa were treated as global pariahs because of those sanctions. Israel however does not even get minor slaps on the wrist, let alone the sanctions it deserves. Perhaps if the Israeli people were treated like the social pariahs South Africans were treated as would help them hold their government to task and actually bring about the peace everyone wants. It could work, however, with Israel acting like the spoiled little brother of America who will veto any sanctions against Israel just like they vetoed the Palestinian recognition bid, it will never happen.

That said, given how LGBT people are still fighting for actual equality and recognition in all nations, denying the delegates from attending seems completely counterproductive to any cause. The LGBT minority have even less power in Israel than they do in America when it comes to changing politicians minds, but at the least some form of LGBT support could have been worked out. Honestly I don't really see how a conference between the two nations would really help as the member of both countries face different localized issues of discrimination.

My personal opinion is that this was a stupid move, similar to cutting off your nose to spite the face. However, on a large scale, something like that as a protest could put the pressure on Israel to actually sit down and work something out with Palestine.

[Witchyjoshy]

Gee.  I dunno.

What's wrong with discriminating based on nation?  Could it be... bigotry?

Also, I find it funny that you mention that last part.  I didn't know about that.  And you're right, it isn't any different.  They're both stupid as fuck.

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

Yeah, at the cost of being bigots.

"The ends justify the means" is never a good statement.  Ever.

[Osama bin Bambi]

It is pinkwashing. By pushing the fact that Israel treats it gays and lesbians better than the rest of the Arab world, it hides the fact that queers had to fight for their rights in Israel, that oppression is still institutionalised.

Um, of course they had to fight for their rights. That's why there are delegates devoted to the cause.

Oppression is still institutionalized in a lot of places in America too, but you don't see American LGBT leaders getting turned away for that.

It tries to hide the fact that orthodox Jews are quite homophobic

This is common knowledge to anyone who knows about the various denominations of Judaism.

and that the West Bank decriminalised sodomy in the 1950s.

Well, mazel-fucking-tov. Good for them. But in the article, the delegates also explain how their organization helps not just Israeli teens, but Palestinian teens as well. It's almost as if maybe, just maybe, there are some Israelis actually care about Palestinians.

There is no evidence that
1) These delegation members support the occupation of Palestine or
2) That they are pushing for LGBT rights in Israel to cover it up.

Stop jumping to conclusions.

Pointing out Israel's accomplishments in LGBT rights does not make it immune from criticism of its other crimes. You, of all people, should understand this.

Groups turned away South African sports teams and cultural groups during their Apartheid era, what is so different about this?

Frankly, turning away the South African sports teams was wrong. It's okay to disagree with a country's foreign policy. However, it is not okay to discriminate against other people on account of them coming from that country. We do not know whether or not this delegates, if any, support the occupation. Jumping to the conclusion that Israeli = Machiavellian asshole is the same kind of bigotry that you have accused a lot of Zionists of.

That said, given how LGBT people are still fighting for actual equality and recognition in all nations, denying the delegates from attending seems completely counterproductive to any cause.

This.

[Distind]

Yeah, at the cost of being bigots.

"The ends justify the means" is never a good statement.  Ever.

Just to note, no one has said that.

Israel has a rather impressive history of murdering, removing or simply ignoring civilians until they die. Is that right? Should it be ignored because of their record on other issues? Or should at least someone hold citizens of that nation accountable for the nation's actions?

This isn't bigotry, that involves unreasoning hatred, there are definitive and valid reasons behind it. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them on it, but it does mean they aren't bigots over it.

There are probably better places it could be done, but no one else has been willing to do it. Maybe if people pulled things like this on Americans more people would realize just how much shit our country has pulled, but it doesn't happen, so the don't/

[Meshakhad]

Discriminating against someone because of where they come from is bigotry.