2nd Presidential Debate thread: Shut the fuck up about 3rd party voters

[m52nickerson]

If you call that trying, it's hardly trying, but the Democrats don't know how to try at anything. If they really wanted to try, they won't be so right leaning as they are and know how to get the message across, which they don't. Why?? Because they don't want to, and a good deal of them are in bed with Wall Street, and the insurance companies, and could care less about the little people. Here's a news flash, not everyone wants to wait 5 generations for real reform, and if anyone wants any real reform they have to demand it, and not wait around for it to happen.We need someone in congress that would keep on demanding it until the cows come home, shutting up about it up and forgetting about isn't going to change anything. Heck, this is why I'm for starting over from scratch, since I little faith in the current system as it stands now.

Please pull your head out of your ass.  If you did that you might see that the Dems have accomplished quite a damn bit over the last few years, and did so during a massive cluster that was the economy.  Having someone in congress demand something over and over is simply going to get other congress members to remember where the exist are whenever that member speaks.  It takes a lot more that just standing up and yelling.  I know that is fun every once in awhile, but it rarely gets much done.

Perhaps if you would have paid attention in your civics class you would also understand that the way the US government is set up, with the separations of power and the two houses, it is not really built for fast changes.  Nor is it built for people to simply sit on the sidelines and make demands.  You want a viable third party, fine go make it happen.  Go join the green party, volunteer at their phone banks, canvas neighborhoods, if you have to run as their candidate.

You know what the vast difference was between the Tea Party movement and the Occupy movement was?  Work!  The Tea Parties put in the work and got some of there people elected.  Yes it was under the GOP banner, but they got people in office.  They also moved the GOP as a party closer to were they wanted it. 

The Occupy movement for all of its thunder and fury did not accomplished much other than making a mess.  Yes, people camped out for weeks and months, but that is easier that putting in the work the Teabaggers did.

So even if you get your way and we start over unless the left in this country starts to really get involved and put in the long hours and build things up the results will be the same.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Frankly, no one is going to change anyone else's mind here so...

Simplest solution: Just vote your conscience. If your political positions align with Barack Obama, vote for him. If you agree more with a third party candidate, as I do, vote for that person.

[Undecided]

Simplest solution: Just vote your conscience. If your political positions align with Barack Obama, vote for him. If you agree more with a third party candidate, as I do, vote for that person.

Unfortunately, that's picking a side, not proposing a solution. The choice between voting tactically and voting sincerely is actually one of the key points of contention. Your decision to vote for a minor party candidate means that the major party candidate who you dislike more is just as likely to win as if you had not voted at all. Conversely, if you vote for the major party candidate you most prefer (or least dislike), then your preferences are not accurately reflected in the final tally. You've picked your poison, and I've picked mine.

What's worse, it's not anyone's fault that the incentives to vote insincerely exist. All voting schemes are susceptible to tactical voting (although, in winner-take-all systems like those of the US, the distortion is particularly egregious).

[nickiknack]

M52nickerson, you need to stop being condesending, otherwise your point is null and void. I get what you are saying, and I do know how the political process works, I'm not a moron. You're the one that comes across as someone who thinks if we follow the book everything will be fine and dandy. Guess what, we have been following the book and everything isn't fine and dandy. We're at a point where both parties are more than happy to whore themselves out to the highest bidder, and are controlled by the special interests. And until the boat is rocked in some way(it'll take way more than just following the book and going through the system), nothing will ever change, because I doubt that the asshats in DC will do it out of the goodness of their hearts. Also when you have an electoral system that doesn't allow for other voices to be heard, and elections that are governed by money, is any wonder the public is jaded as fuck when it comes to politics?? Also I forgot to add, I'm done with this shit...

[m52nickerson]

M52nickerson, you need to stop being condesending, otherwise your point is null and void. I get what you are saying, and I do know how the political process works, I'm not a moron. You're the one that comes across as someone who thinks if we follow the book everything will be fine and dandy. Guess what, we have been following the book and everything isn't fine and dandy. We're at a point where both parties are more than happy to whore themselves out to the highest bidder, and are controlled by the special interests. And until the boat is rocked in some way(it'll take way more than just following the book and going through the system), nothing will ever change, because I doubt that the asshats in DC will do it out of the goodness of their hearts. Also when you have an electoral system that doesn't allow for other voices to be heard, and elections that are governed by money, is any wonder the public is jaded as fuck when it comes to politics??

You say that you know how it works, but can see that some of your arguments don't pan out.  Right now in this country the economy sucks.  The public education system needs help.  So yes there are problems.  There are always problems.  Thing is Americans still have a ridiculously high standard of living.  Overall things are not so horrible we are even close to having to burn it down and start over.

You seem to ignore the progress that has been made because it has not come fast enough or because there is more to do.  You and other keep harping on the electoral system even after it has been pointed out that thirds parties have found success in some places and that the only national elected position is the Presidency.  (and the VP if you wan to get nit-picky).  Every other election is state wide or local.

You talk about the Dems sucking up to corporations, but that when pushed you really don't provide anything.  If you think that any economic policy based around a free market is right wing you will always be disappointed.  This country will always be based on a free market, based around capitalism.  At one point in thread or the other you complained about the people on Wall Street not being arrested, when asked for what you did not have an answer.  You and other yell about special interests without realizing some of those groups are working on the behalf of thing you want.

In the end I don't think you know how it all works.  If you did you would not be making the arguments you are.

Oh, and me being condescending or even a complete asshole in now way invalidates my points.  If you are here to win an argument you are on the wrong site.  Stick around if you want to discuss things and perhaps learn with the rest of us.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Simplest solution: Just vote your conscience. If your political positions align with Barack Obama, vote for him. If you agree more with a third party candidate, as I do, vote for that person.

Unfortunately, that's picking a side, not proposing a solution. The choice between voting tactically and voting sincerely is actually one of the key points of contention. Your decision to vote for a minor party candidate means that the major party candidate who you dislike more is just as likely to win as if you had not voted at all.

I'm sorry but I cannot, in good conscience, vote for the "lesser of two evils". I cannot vote for a man who has a kill list, murders Americans via drone strike and signed away Americans' right to trial via the NDAA. Nor can I vote for a man who, I'm certain, would continue all those policies and clearly also holds half our country in contempt.

[m52nickerson]

Simplest solution: Just vote your conscience. If your political positions align with Barack Obama, vote for him. If you agree more with a third party candidate, as I do, vote for that person.

Unfortunately, that's picking a side, not proposing a solution. The choice between voting tactically and voting sincerely is actually one of the key points of contention. Your decision to vote for a minor party candidate means that the major party candidate who you dislike more is just as likely to win as if you had not voted at all.

I'm sorry but I cannot, in good conscience, vote for the "lesser of two evils". I cannot vote for a man who has a kill list, murders Americans via drone strike and signed away Americans' right to trial via the NDAA. Nor can I vote for a man who, I'm certain, would continue all those policies and clearly also holds half our country in contempt.

Than vote for a third party candidate...just vote.

[largeham]

Doesn't change the fact that it was he who did it where other presidents and potential presidents wouldn't

Seriously, this is a massive deflection on your part.

It is not. I'm not going to vote for a person who's only good enough to see the writing on the wall.

You act like I'm for the drone strikes, but seriously, I condemn those, too.

I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater over this, though.

But should we keep DADT as queers still joined the military?

...What.

No, seriously, what.  What is this crap?

Are you even paying attention to what you're saying anymore?  Or are you typing anything that comes to mind without any thought?

As you can't seem to join the dots, I will do it for you. For decades the union movement has bowed and scraped to the Democrats. No matter how right wing the Democrats become, the unions still support them. So when someone who froths at the mouth at the word union is elected, their one solution is to vote Democrat. And when that fails they don't have the experience/tradition/strength/morale to fight on their own.

Oh joy, more buzzwords that have little to no meaning.

Buzzwords with no meaning? I'll repeat myself. The Democrats have since the 90s presented the nice, happy face of neoliberalism, after Reagan destroyed the welfare state the Democrats have followed behind the Republicans. Yet leftists still support and vote for the Democrats. Instead of breaking away and either voting for a third party or simply organising on the ground, they still look to the Democrats for help despite the Democrats moving further and further to the right.

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post.  You rely on sources that are factually incorrect (such as Obama supporting the war, as was disproved earlier-- which you conveniently ignored), you take any source that says what you want to say, and quite frankly, nothing is to be gained from arguing with you.

Good day.

Boo hoo for you. So Obama did not vote for war funding. And last year, he was still offering to keep 10,000 troops in Iraq. Or maybe it was Bush that began the end of the Iraq war. No, Obama would never send in more troops to Afghanistan. And there are still 68,000 in the country.

Right largeham I asked you for sources for your points earlier now let's go to the other side.  Convince me to vote for Romney.  Tell me why he's better for the country then Obama ever would be.

Ironbite-cite your sources please.

Perhaps you missed those extension of unemployment benefits, or the GOP harping on the number of people receiving food stamps now. 

The GOP crying about people on food stamps says nothing about the Democrats.
Oh dear, pension cuts and pay freezes for federal workers, but not for prisons.

[ironbite]

Alright since you want to be a little bitch about this....convince me to vote for you whatever candidate you support.

Ironbite-cite your sources please.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Alright since you want to be a little bitch about this....convince me to vote for you whatever candidate you support.

Ironbite-cite your sources please.

Vote for Emperor Kang.

[m52nickerson]

The GOP crying about people on food stamps says nothing about the Democrats.
Oh dear, pension cuts and pay freezes for federal workers, but not for prisons.

Says nothing about the Dems?  Really I guess that is why the GOP is using it as an attack line.

As for the links you posted....hello this is reality calling!  If being a leftist means shutting your eyes and ignoring the reality of situation. 

First regarding social security.  Yes the reduction of payroll taxes reduces the amount going to the SS trust fund right now.  That reduction had written into the law that any short fall must be made up by general revenue.  It has not cause any loss in benefits.

Now as far as the freezes in salary for federal employees, again welcome to reality.  There is not a lot of pay increases for workers going on right now for anyone.  It is really hard for the government to justify increase in federal employees salaries when we are still running large deficits and the economy is still in the tank.

Of course the rest of your arguments ignore any type of reality as well.  Yes the President send more troops to Afghanistan.  He could have just pulled out and left all people high and dry and at the mercy of the Taliban or what ever group came along.  I guess you think if we would have just picked up and left Afghanistan would have become a land of milk, honey, and rainbow shitting unicorns!

Perhaps the people on the left that support the Dems do so because they have basis in reality.  Seems you don't.

[Saturn500]

Alright since you want to be a little bitch about this....convince me to vote for you whatever candidate you support.

Ironbite-cite your sources please.

Vote for Emperor Kang.

No, vote for Kodos!

[Lt. Fred]

Not only do you need to stop being condescending (if only because it's not nice), you also...

If you think that any economic policy based around a free market is right wing you will always be disappointed.

need to stop lying.

Right now in this country the economy sucks.

And the Democrats have no done what they could to help. In fact, they have made things worse.

The public education system needs help.

And the Democrats will only make it worse.

Thing is Americans still have a ridiculously high standard of living.

A standard of living paid for with debt.

You seem to ignore the progress that has been made

Negative progress. The US has gone backwards since 1968.

If you think that any economic policy based around a free market is right wing you will always be disappointed.

Which, of course, he doesn't.

At one point in thread or the other you complained about the people on Wall Street not being arrested, when asked for what you did not have an answer.

Fraud will do.

[niam2023]

I am just going to vote for Obama because it makes sense for me to.

I do not mind his kill list. I like that he has a list of people he'd like to kill. I can respect that.

At the end of the day, meaningfully, there is little chance for the Two Party System to go away, and so, even if I had a conscience, I'd not have much choice. I am not about to vote for a third party and potentially divert a vote from a Democrat who might be progressive and have a good chance to get in the White House, better than someone who has little chance anyway.

But, really, I do not really care who wins the election one way or the other. This just gives me something to stave off boredom.

[m52nickerson]

need to stop lying.

Oh, so you think that any economic policy based around a free market is right wing?

And the Democrats have no done what they could to help. In fact, they have made things worse.

Not done what they could?  Have you missed them pushing for more stimulus ans for job bills?  How have they made it worse?

And the Democrats will only make it worse.

Again, how so?  It easy to say that harder to provide an actual argument.

A standard of living paid for with debt.

Yes...and?

Negative progress. The US has gone backwards since 1968.

I had to stop laughing before I could respond to this.  Backwards?  How about you giver some examples of how that is.

Which, of course, he doesn't.

I'm glad you think you know that.  I'll wait for him to explain.

Fraud will do.

Care to expand on that including the applicable federal laws?