Author Topic: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet  (Read 7510 times)

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Art Vandelay

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 07:20:48 am »
Saddam was a horrible person, and there is no denying that.  BUT, he was rabidly atheist and knew the dangers of letting the extremists have any kind of real power.
Actually he was Sunni. Just sayin'.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2012, 07:29:32 am »
If he was an atheist he had a funny way of showing it.

Offline armandtanzarian

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 07:35:40 am »
Looking at your title I must ask, what did you think you were supposed to be paying for?
As someone who agrees with the title, I'd say it should've been used to pay off the federal government's debt.
That's not what I meant. I mean from the perspective of the Bush administration, what did you think were THEIR goals? More importantly for them, do you think they've achieved those goals, regardless of the consequences?

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2012, 07:42:00 am »
If he was an atheist he had a funny way of showing it.

That's both neat and icky at the same time.

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2012, 08:39:08 am »
Democracy has never been successfully imposed on a nation by outside forces, especially outside military forces. The only viable path to a stable democracy is when the people themselves rise up and demand it and, if necessary, take it by force of arms. Democracy is essentially a populist movement, and only when the population works for it will it be achieved. All attempts by outside influences to establish democracy will last only as long as those outside forces are present and directly involved. The moment they are gone, those who find themselves in positions of authority will inevitable abuse it, resulting in the formation of your basic police state.

History has shown us this over and over again, but the US government just doesn't get it.
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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2012, 10:28:38 am »
Saddam was a horrible person, and there is no denying that.  BUT, he was rabidly atheist and knew the dangers of letting the extremists have any kind of real power.
Actually he was Sunni. Just sayin'.

Sorry about that, it was early and I wrote that incorrectly.  His party, Ba'ath was atheist.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2012, 08:42:58 pm »
Bear in mind also that, while Saddam was certainly fairly brutal, most of his moves were based around him gaining more power and land (gassing the Kurds and attacking Kuwait, for example).

Gassing the Kurds was one of those sad inevitable things that happen from time to time. In the '70s, the Kurds figures that the Iraqi state wasn't going to like them very much, so they accepted arms from Iran (in violation of a treaty between the two countries) and started attacking things. Then Saddam took over and ripped up Iraq's treaty with Iran over the Shatt-al Arab waterway, launching what he envisaged as some kind of Operation Barbarossa surprise attack curb-stomp. The war didn't end there, and the Kurds gradually became a massive thorn in the side of the Iraqis, when the Iranians decided to use their country's numbers and staying power to launch a series of broad-front raids. Of course, a domestic insurgency is great for that, so the Kurds became a major part of their strategy in the North of the country. The Iraqis found it very difficult to combat them, because of the rough terrain, lack of soldiers, and poor Iraqi counter-insurgency doctrine.

At this time, old Uncle Sam turned up with an answer: chemical weapon the fuck out of them. Kill 'em all.

Attacking Kuwait was a result of the Iran-Iran thing. At the end of the war, the Iraqi arm was massive relative to the rest of the country, moving it towards bankruptcy (particularly since oil prices stabilised low). But domestic unrest caused by unemployment was also a major problem, so Saddam couldn't just lay them all off with their weapons (sound like someone else to you)? His solution was pretty neat- use the massive army to invade a wealthy neighbour and pay for itself. Bam, done! He asked the US first, and they gave the green light. But then, for some reason, the US changed it's mind. And refused to allow negotiation or even full withdrawal, insisting on bombing the Iraqi army flat- probably for domestic partisan reasons- needlessly killing 100,000 people or so. And then the US whacked sanctions on Saddam's arse, making the problem even worse, and killing 600,000 Iraqis (Albreicht said it was 'worth it'). And then Saddam was making WMDs, and we had to invade. And then we'd broken it so we had to maintain the occupation over Iraqi protests. And then the country wasn't a first-world oil-rich, well-educated tyranny anymore, it was a third-world, well-educated tyranny with a lot fewer living people.

Quote
This is not unlike what happened in Iran.  Iran used to be one of the most progressive Islamic nations when the Shah was in power.  Except, the Shah displeased the US and Britain (by trying to sell their oil for higher prices), so those nations worked with the rebels to depose him.  And then the Ayatollah and ruling council took power.

I keep hearing this, but I never see any evidence for it. As far as I'm concerned, this is just speculation.
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Offline DasFuchs

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2012, 11:45:58 pm »
I can't say, really; I wasn't alive for any other major conflicts. This war, this bullshit in Iraq and Afghanistan, has been going on for about half my life by now. Just think about that for a second. I was ten years old when we were attacked, and I've literally grown up with the conflict. I barely know a time when we weren't at war, chasing down imaginary threats while ignoring very real ones.

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2012, 12:56:16 am »
History has shown us this over and over again, but the US government just doesn't get it.
That's because we were dropped on our heads as children

Offline Sylvana

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2012, 02:32:30 am »
History has shown us this over and over again, but the US government just doesn't get it.
That's because we were dropped on our heads as children

I remember watching the Iraq war and wondering just what kind of idiot they actually had in charge of the campaign because he was making many critically important tactical errors that even someone without basic military training understands. I don't know why, but America just never seems to learn. What makes it worse is that with all the wars the US gets invloved in you would thin they would have figured some of this stuff out by now.

Art Vandelay

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Re: One Trillion dollars and counting down the Fucking Toilet
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2012, 05:52:11 am »
Looking at your title I must ask, what did you think you were supposed to be paying for?
As someone who agrees with the title, I'd say it should've been used to pay off the federal government's debt.
That's not what I meant. I mean from the perspective of the Bush administration, what did you think were THEIR goals? More importantly for them, do you think they've achieved those goals, regardless of the consequences?
I'm guessing their goals were to look good politically and to ensure that Iraqi oil always flows stateside. I'm going to say yes (in the short term at least) for the latter, and no, he made a colossal fucking trainwreck out of political image for the former.
History has shown us this over and over again, but the US government just doesn't get it.
Oh I'm sure they get it. They also get that it's much easier to keep a dictator on a leash and that the average voter will stop giving a shit about the country in question as soon as the war's over.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 05:56:38 am by Art Vandelay »