Author Topic: The Trial of George Zimmerman  (Read 65963 times)

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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #285 on: July 15, 2013, 12:22:16 am »
What if Martin had been armed? Would he not have been legally justified in shooting Zimmerman.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #286 on: July 15, 2013, 12:39:41 am »
What if Martin had been armed? Would he not have been legally justified in shooting Zimmerman.

Not for what Zimmerman did. While Zimmerman acted as the initial aggressor and intimidated Martin into believing that he was a street tough looking for a victim (don't follow people when they're alone at night, you twat), Martin was the one to throw the first blow. It wasn't a very smart move, though he was definitely legitimately scared for his life, but Martin was the one who started it.

If Martin wanted justification for killing Zimmerman instead, Zimmerman would have had to have escalated the fight to the point where a firearm would be deemed necessary. This could be as little as exposing his own gun as a means to intimidate Martin, or as much as actually drawing and firing on him.

Had I been Martin, I likely would have been carrying some kind of weapon on me if I was alone at night. If I caught Zimmerman following me, I would have been shouting at him to keep his distance and informing him that I was armed and willing to protect myself.
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Offline Askold

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #287 on: July 15, 2013, 12:49:25 am »
If I had been Martin I would have called 911 when I saw someone tailing me.

Maybe he didn't believe the cops would make it in time or come at all, but that's what I would have done.

At least it would have made the prosecution's work easier, if there had been recording of Martin clearly being in fear of his life. It should have shut up the pro-Zimmerman group about Marting being a thug who attacked Zimmerman.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #288 on: July 15, 2013, 01:07:39 am »
What if Martin had been armed? Would he not have been legally justified in shooting Zimmerman.

Not for what Zimmerman did. While Zimmerman acted as the initial aggressor and intimidated Martin into believing that he was a street tough looking for a victim (don't follow people when they're alone at night, you twat), Martin was the one to throw the first blow. It wasn't a very smart move, though he was definitely legitimately scared for his life,

Self-defence then.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #289 on: July 15, 2013, 01:31:16 am »
Self-defence then.

You can't murder someone purely for following you. Even if you fear for your life, the person must actually be threatening the life of yourself or someone else. Martin couldn't shoot Zimmerman just for following him. He COULD shoot him if Zimmerman brandished or used a weapon, or if the size and/or strength disparity between them was so immense (which it wasn't) that Martin could have never defended himself without a gun.
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Offline DiscoBerry

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #290 on: July 15, 2013, 09:51:18 am »
And the WTF begins:  Lester Chambers attacked on stage after dedicating song to Trayvon Martin

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Almost immediately Dinalynn Andrews Potter leapt on to the stage – "like an acrobat", according to Chambers' wife. "She had a crazed look in her eye," a witness told the Times. "I saw the devil there." She shoved the singer before anyone else could react; Chambers, 73, was eventually taken to hospital, receiving treatment for "bruised rib muscle and nerve damage". Andrews Potter, 43, was arrested and charged with suspicion of battery, while Chambers "will be up and running soon", according to his son.


Offline ironbite

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #291 on: July 15, 2013, 10:10:12 am »
What if Martin had been armed? Would he not have been legally justified in shooting Zimmerman.

Not for what Zimmerman did. While Zimmerman acted as the initial aggressor and intimidated Martin into believing that he was a street tough looking for a victim (don't follow people when they're alone at night, you twat), Martin was the one to throw the first blow. It wasn't a very smart move, though he was definitely legitimately scared for his life, but Martin was the one who started it.

If Martin wanted justification for killing Zimmerman instead, Zimmerman would have had to have escalated the fight to the point where a firearm would be deemed necessary. This could be as little as exposing his own gun as a means to intimidate Martin, or as much as actually drawing and firing on him.

Had I been Martin, I likely would have been carrying some kind of weapon on me if I was alone at night. If I caught Zimmerman following me, I would have been shouting at him to keep his distance and informing him that I was armed and willing to protect myself.

So by throwing the first punch, Martin gave up his right to Stand his Ground?

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Offline Askold

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #292 on: July 15, 2013, 11:01:36 am »

So by throwing the first punch, Martin gave up his right to Stand his Ground?

Ironbite-wow.

When does Stand your ground start to apply? Some reports claim that Zimmerman showed his gun and clearly intimidated and baited Martin to fight. If a stranger follows a teenager around, shows that he is armed and dares the teen to grab his gun I don't see how that does not qualify as a threat. In fact if punching a person counts as a lethal threat then doesn't an ACTUAL GUN count as a lethal threat?


And I am a bit suprised but the racists aren't the most infuriating pro-Zimmerman group I've seen. I mean the people who blame the black kid no matter what happened and are glad that there is one black person less are always horrible cunts, but the pro-gun people defending Zimmerman are worse in a way.

I mean, people who at least claim not to be racists are defending this as a good example of self defense. They are defending a person who stalked a teen and (according to most evidence) started the confrontation, the person who was specifically looking for trouble and an opportunity to attack Martin.

Seriously, Ironbite was joking/sarcastic with his comment but I have really read comments that throwing that punch justified killing Martin.

In fact:

Quote
Made a Facebook post saying "innocent! Start throwing punches in a concealed carry state and expect to get shot." to which I got replies along the line of "oh, you mean racist white guys get to kill innocent black guys just for the hell of it."

but I'm the racist evidently. Sadly it looks like it, because I have not a single black friend left on facebook. Which hurts, because one of my best friends was one of them.

Can't seem to find the one identical to Ironbite's post though.

And I'm not sure if I want to dig further to find it...
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #293 on: July 15, 2013, 11:24:57 am »

So by throwing the first punch, Martin gave up his right to Stand his Ground?

Ironbite-wow.

When does Stand your ground start to apply? Some reports claim that Zimmerman showed his gun and clearly intimidated and baited Martin to fight. If a stranger follows a teenager around, shows that he is armed and dares the teen to grab his gun I don't see how that does not qualify as a threat. In fact if punching a person counts as a lethal threat then doesn't an ACTUAL GUN count as a lethal threat?


And I am a bit suprised but the racists aren't the most infuriating pro-Zimmerman group I've seen. I mean the people who blame the black kid no matter what happened and are glad that there is one black person less are always horrible cunts, but the pro-gun people defending Zimmerman are worse in a way.

I mean, people who at least claim not to be racists are defending this as a good example of self defense. They are defending a person who stalked a teen and (according to most evidence) started the confrontation, the person who was specifically looking for trouble and an opportunity to attack Martin.

Seriously, Ironbite was joking/sarcastic with his comment but I have really read comments that throwing that punch justified killing Martin.

In fact:

Quote
Made a Facebook post saying "innocent! Start throwing punches in a concealed carry state and expect to get shot." to which I got replies along the line of "oh, you mean racist white guys get to kill innocent black guys just for the hell of it."

but I'm the racist evidently. Sadly it looks like it, because I have not a single black friend left on facebook. Which hurts, because one of my best friends was one of them.

Can't seem to find the one identical to Ironbite's post though.

And I'm not sure if I want to dig further to find it...

Ok, my head fucking hurts now from the train of thought in that comment. Really, so people can't defend themselves now when a wannabe cop pulls a gun on you?? Also, I don't feel sorry for that asshole getting defriended. I personally would like to ask that person what he would do in the situation, I bet when push comes to shove he would do the same thing Martin did.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 11:28:23 am by Empress Nicki »

Offline ironbite

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #294 on: July 15, 2013, 11:29:35 am »
Every time somebody brings up the fact that Martin threw the first punch, I always respond that way.  We know what happened.  Zimmerman followed this kid.  The phone conversation he had with his best friend supports this.  Zimmerman then approached him.  Zimmerman's story supports this.  Then....a punch was thrown.  That is what's in dispute.  Who threw it.  And who was on top.

Ironbite-this case is just.....ug.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #295 on: July 15, 2013, 12:37:45 pm »
WHY can't people just acknowledge/nod and say hello first? It alleviates tension, and emphasizes that you are a real person - versus an anonymous, dehumanized or profiled target - in the eyes of either a criminal or of a wary, overly protective wanna be. This also gives you the chance to familiarize yourself with that person's facial features, voice, clothing description details, etc. if needed later to report to the police. It is much easier to recall these details accurately when you note them while you are calm and relaxed.

In the townhouse complex where I live, there are lots of frail old folks, and young couples with little kids and babies. I am very fond of my neighbors, and feel very protective of them. So, about 6 months ago I was walking my two dogs, on the way back in through the main complex entrance. I see a short, middle aged black man on a BMX bicycle, just sitting there at the corner looking around. I say "Hi", he says, "Hi" back to me, and at this time an old white man in a car is turning this corner slowly and staring at the guy. I stay put,  as the black guy (who actually does look very shady/sketchy, but not dangerous) and I are just talking, and soon both of us were smiling and relaxed after finding out we both used to live in Atlanta, so we are reminiscing about what we each loved about that city. This dude is definitely shady, yeah, but he's also a human being, and he responds to me as another human being. Risk resolved. Tension defused. He's not an ice cold, ruthless sadistic gangster. He's not a sociopath. This is not a news hype moment, not a Hollywood meme scenario. He's just a loser. My dogs never got tense around him, either.

But then the old man, who had been driving 5 miles per hour and probably looking at us in his rear view mirror, quickly backs up his car and stops, staring at the guy. The guy was startled by this and pedaled away out of the neighborhood. The old man rolled down his window and smiled saying, "I have my gun in my lap. He better not ever come back".

After the old man said that was the only time I felt scared. I would much rather chat up a criminal than deal with a riled up 75 year old who has a gun in their lap, you know? Yes, the guy was sketchy, and probably a burglar or a burglary ring's scout casing this affluent subdivision.  All the old man needed to do was call 911 to report a suspicious person. As to his concern for my safety, which I thanked him for, all he had to do was park his car by us, roll down his window, and join the conversation. That would have tipped over the sketchy guy's comfort level, and he'd most likely have excused himself and cruised on out of there. No gun was needed, even if the sketchy guy was armed (as he probably was).

I was hoping to take my leave of the guy, and call in a suspicious person report to the police and give his description. The guy may very well have continued on riding around casing the neighborhood, which has only two entry streets. The cops could have found him and questioned him or picked him up on out standing warrants. This could have led to busting a burglary ring, or at least discouraging this guy from coming back to the neighborhood for a while.

As it turned out, thanks to the well-meaning but stupid/scary old man, this dude escaped. OPD has a burglary stake out unit and they placed unmarked surveillance cars around the neighborhood for the next ten days, waiting to catch any burglary or home invasion perpetrators. There have been several break ins and two home invasions in this neighborhood in the past two years. Would have been nice to actually let the police have a chance to catch these guys.
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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #296 on: July 15, 2013, 12:53:03 pm »
Because certain people like to think themselves to be "Badasses" that's why.

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #297 on: July 15, 2013, 01:47:26 pm »
If I had been Martin I would have called 911 when I saw someone tailing me.

Maybe he didn't believe the cops would make it in time or come at all, but that's what I would have done.

At least it would have made the prosecution's work easier, if there had been recording of Martin clearly being in fear of his life. It should have shut up the pro-Zimmerman group about Marting being a thug who attacked Zimmerman.

He probably didn't have a phone on him. I can't recall what all he had on him at the time, tho, so I might be wrong. But this also comes into account: fear. You're afraid of the big dude following you. You think maybe pulling out a phone would 'spook' the guy following you and make him attack you sooner. So you don't.

Admittedly, I've always imagined secretly dialing 911 in my pocket but my phone doesn't allow that because touchscreen.

In other news, people have staged a mass sit-in in NYC and other places.

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #298 on: July 15, 2013, 01:49:20 pm »
If I had been Martin I would have called 911 when I saw someone tailing me.

Maybe he didn't believe the cops would make it in time or come at all, but that's what I would have done.

At least it would have made the prosecution's work easier, if there had been recording of Martin clearly being in fear of his life. It should have shut up the pro-Zimmerman group about Marting being a thug who attacked Zimmerman.

He probably didn't have a phone on him. I can't recall what all he had on him at the time, tho, so I might be wrong. But this also comes into account: fear. You're afraid of the big dude following you. You think maybe pulling out a phone would 'spook' the guy following you and make him attack you sooner. So you don't.

Admittedly, I've always imagined secretly dialing 911 in my pocket but my phone doesn't allow that because touchscreen.

In other news, people have staged a mass sit-in in NYC and other places.

He had a cell phone. He was on the phone with his girlfriend at the time (the one who didn't look so good when questioned). Also, she alleges that Trayvon's phone was slapped out of his hand by Zimmerman after Trayvon asked Zimmerman who he was.

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Re: The Trial of George Zimmerman
« Reply #299 on: July 15, 2013, 01:53:18 pm »
If I had been Martin I would have called 911 when I saw someone tailing me.

Maybe he didn't believe the cops would make it in time or come at all, but that's what I would have done.

At least it would have made the prosecution's work easier, if there had been recording of Martin clearly being in fear of his life. It should have shut up the pro-Zimmerman group about Marting being a thug who attacked Zimmerman.

He probably didn't have a phone on him. I can't recall what all he had on him at the time, tho, so I might be wrong. But this also comes into account: fear. You're afraid of the big dude following you. You think maybe pulling out a phone would 'spook' the guy following you and make him attack you sooner. So you don't.

Admittedly, I've always imagined secretly dialing 911 in my pocket but my phone doesn't allow that because touchscreen.

In other news, people have staged a mass sit-in in NYC and other places.

He had a cell phone. He was on the phone with his girlfriend at the time (the one who didn't look so good when questioned). Also, she alleges that Trayvon's phone was slapped out of his hand by Zimmerman after Trayvon asked Zimmerman who he was.

Ah. Thanks. Yeah. That would be a problem if your phone isn't at hand to call someone else. I wonder if anyone's blamed her for not doing something on her end.

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