The Trial of George Zimmerman

[chitoryu12]

Stevie Wonder is boycotting Florida until the Stand Your Ground law is abolished.

Didn't see that one coming.

[TheUnknown]

Am I the only one bothered by one of the jurors being a racist and saying things such as:

“I think George was pretty consistent..told the truth basically. It happened, “pretty much the way George said."
“I have no doubt George feared for his life, in the situation he was in at the time."
“Zimmerman’s heart was in the right place … just went terribly wrong."
"Trayvon should’ve walked away."
"I think Trayvon got mad and attacked him (George Zimmerman)."
"Rachel Jeantel was not credible…I felt bad for her. A lot of the time, she was using phrases I’ve never heard before."
“I think all of us (the jury) didn’t think race played a role."
"I didn’t understand why the case had gotten so big because I didn’t see this case as racial."
"And all the people that want him guilty, aren’t going to have any closure. I just never saw it as a racial thing."
“George Zimmerman was just frustrated. I think he just didn’t know when to stop. Too many things were happening in his neighborhood. I think he’s changed now."
“I think he has every right to carry a gun."
George Zimmerman is going to be more responsible with a gun than anyone else on the planet right now.
Initial jury vote was: 3 for not guilty, 1 for second degree murder, 2 for manslaughter
"The laws regarding manslaughter, self-defense, etc. were very confusing to comprehend."
*sobs* “This was an emotional trial." *Anderson Cooper asks if she felt sad for Trayvon Martin*……………….Um yes and I feel sorry for George too.
It’s just sad that we all had to come together and figure out what is going to happen to this man’s life afterwards."

Source: Anderson Cooper interview

Is this the same one who said that if the previous burglaries had been committed by whites or Mexicans, then she was confident Zimmerman would have reacted the exact same way?  I think my grandma said she's planning to write a book about this.

[Shane for Wax]

Yep, that's the one.

[chitoryu12]

Is this the same one who said that if the previous burglaries had been committed by whites or Mexicans, then she was confident Zimmerman would have reacted the exact same way?  I think my grandma said she's planning to write a book about this.

If that were true, it might actually reflect worse on Zimmerman's character. He's now going from a racist to a paranoid lunatic who will stalk and threaten anyone he sees so he can feel like a badass cop.

[The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist]

Christ, that fucking Zimmerman relative IAmA. This just says it all:

Okay guys, I have tried sleeping for four and a half hours, and I'm really out of it. Just wanted to clarify that, holy shit, I am not George, you guys. As for the whole "Yeah, he's trying to paint his relative like an angel", fuck you. Seriously, you have no idea what this case has done to my family, and to see it EVERYWHERE without being able to say something is fucking brutal. I hear so much bullshit about George it's not even funny. I was pretty much homeless for six months due to this bullshit, living off the kindness of friends. I am here to defend George and clear things up. Is George an angel? No. As a matter of a fact, he stole a computer monitor from me after this whole thing happened. I do not even LIKE George anymore. But, I know all of that was because of what he was going through. I will try to answer some questions but I'm on 48 hours of no sleep here. Also, I could not do an AMA before the trial ended. I don't want to fuck anything up, but I have been itching to finally publicly be able to defend someone I know. There are still a lot of misconceptions out there floating around, and I want to try to fix that.

Sample of my inbox, I'll just do one.

I hope God whoever God is, never relieve your son of this horrendous crime against a young child and the faith of millions of people. May it forever remain in his paranoid conscience and may his own conscience never forgive him and may it kill him dead one day!

Well, I'm not George's mother, but you sound like a good Christian with Christian values...I'm seeing a LOT of stuff like this. And frankly, it is sad. Have you all motherfuckers never seen Se7en? Don't be the last sin.

Also, I am not trying to paint us as the only victims...obviously the loss of Trayvon was a terrible thing. But just refer to the above. I DO NOT speak for George. I'm just shedding light on MY FAMILIES side of the situation. I'm not a PR guy. The "George's past" argument is a joke as well, you all talk about George's past, what of Trayvon's? What of this "child's" past of violence and trying to purchase guns and doing drugs? I don't bring that up to try to smear his grave, just that seriously, why is his past not relevant?

[chitoryu12]

The "George's past" argument is a joke as well, you all talk about George's past, what of Trayvon's? What of this "child's" past of violence and trying to purchase guns and doing drugs? I don't bring that up to try to smear his grave, just that seriously, why is his past not relevant?

Because it's NOT relevant. The constant sniping at Martin is a form of character assassination and almost like an ad hominem: whether or not he was a thug or on his way to becoming a career criminal, it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't doing anything illegal or even really suspicious when Zimmerman began following and scaring him.

On the other hand, Zimmerman's past IS relevant. The question at hand was whether Zimmerman was negligent, or even malicious or motivated by some kind of character flaw like racism or arrogance, in pursuing an innocent person and shooting an unarmed kid. If he's established to be racist against blacks, that would indicate a potential racist motivation for suspecting Martin of wrongdoing when he was literally doing nothing but walking down the street. If he was established as violent or willing to disproportionately use force to solve conflicts, that would indicate that he had killed someone who didn't do anything to deserve it.

Character means nothing when determining if a person who was innocent of wrongdoing was stalked and killed by a wannabe cop. It means EVERYTHING when determining if said wannabe cop was acting appropriately.

[Shane for Wax]

Trayvon died twice. Once at the hands of George Zimmerman, and the other at the hands of the court. Enough said, relative of George.

[chitoryu12]

I think it helps people who want to support Zimmerman in coping with the idea of him killing someone. If they can claim that Trayvon was some kind of thug, they can stop caring about his death or even say that Zimmerman was "cleaning the filth off our streets."

It's a lot harder to handle the idea that someone who was supposedly using his God-given right for self-defense had killed someone he wasn't supposed to.

[Lt. Fred]

Yes, Eric the jury along with the Judge, the Prosecution and all the other lawyers that have been on NPR, local public radio, commercial radio, and the networks are wrong.

...or perhaps you are?

Now that's an "appeal to authority/popularity" fallacy if I've ever seen one.

Eric has consistently provided evidence supporting what he says.  All you've done is... repeat yourself and then say that "Hey all of these people disagree with you so therefore you must be wrong"

Might want to try a little harder.

I have to disagree with you here, Nickerson's argument is not fallacious. If a large number of experts agree to something in their field of expertise, that is decent evidence in favour of it.

It'd be a useful heuristic, not real evidence.

[Sigmaleph]

There's no dichotomy there. A useful heuristic pointing in favour of a claim is also evidence. Evidence in favour of a claim is, essentially, any information that once you learn it raises your subjective probability that the claim is true. In practical terms, very weak evidence is usually excluded because it's not worth updating on, but this is not relevant here.

And either way, the main point is the same. Call it a heuristic or call it evidence, the main point is that it's not fallacious to bring up the opinion of experts on the subject of their expertise.

[erictheblue]

Yes, Eric the jury along with the Judge, the Prosecution and all the other lawyers

Please provide a cite to where the Judge and the ASA's on this case stated that Zimmerman had a right to escalate from non-deadly force to deadly force.


As an aside, the State may* have grounds for a mistrial...

JUROR: Right. Because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right.

Zimmerman did not use a Stand Your Ground defense, yet it seems the jurors used their interpretation of that law in their deliberations. I don't know what jury instructions they were given, but if Zimmerman didn't use SYG, I strongly doubt they were given a jury instruction on it. Which means the jury used their own beliefs about the law, rather than what the Judge told them.



* I am basing that only on one comment by a juror. The way the jury deliberated may not be accurately portrayed by her comment.

[Shane for Wax]

The prosecutor in the case was also fucked up.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/15/who-is-angela-corey-from-being-fired-to-prosecuting-zimmerman.html

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=9174187

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-04/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shooting-coreybre83312u-20120404_1_prosecutor-tough-reputation-lethal-force

Not about race. And she was fired once before. Okay.

[Lt. Fred]

There's no dichotomy there. A useful heuristic pointing in favour of a claim is also evidence.

That's basically the definition of heuristic: "something useful for solving a problem or coming to understanding other than evidence." Racist stereotypes are heuristics. Most logical fallacies are heuristics.




Also, it's quite amusing to watch Alan Dershowitz abandon what little honest claim to liberalism he ever had over this case. More money in hackery anyway.

[PosthumanHeresy]

Screw it, I'm just going to quote David Draiman. Sorry in advance, he doesn't turn off capslock.

ZIMMERMAN/TRAYVON MARTIN;

THE CASE IS OVER AND A VERDICT HAS BEEN GIVEN. NOW;

NO MATTER WHAT YOUR OWN PERSONAL OPINION MAY BE ON THE OUTCOME OF THIS CASE,

1. NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED IN ACTS OF VIOLENCE OR DESTRUCTION AS A RESULT OF THIS.

2. POLITICISING THIS EVENT (AS THE LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE MEDIA HAVE BOTH DONE) IS IRRESPONSIBLE, ABHORRENT, AND SELFISH. THERE’S ALREADY FAR TOO MUCH RACIAL TENSION AND BASELESS HATRED IN THIS WORLD, AND THOSE ON EITHER SIDE WHO TRY TO USE THIS AS A MEANS OF FURTHERING THEIR POLITICAL AGENDAS, FEAR/HATE MONGERING, OR FURTHERING THEIR OWN RISE TO FAME OR POWER, SHOULD BE CALLED OUT AND SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES.

3. THERE ARE A PLETHORA OF EXAMPLES OF BOTH JUSTICE AND INJUSTICE ALL OVER THE WORLD, EVERY DAY OF OUR LIVES, THIS IS NOT, NOR SHOULD IT BE MADE TO BE A BLACK OR WHITE OR HISPANIC ISSUE.

SO ALL OF YOU OUT THERE, GET OFF OF YOUR SOAPBOXES, CUT THE CRAP, MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIVES, AND LETS FOCUS ON ALL OF THE OTHER ATROCITIES THAT OCCUR ALL OVER THE GLOBE (LIKE THE SCHOOL MASSACRE IN NIGERIA WHICH THE MEDIA HAS BASICALLY GLOSSED OVER IN FAVOR OF THE ZIMMERMAN FRENZY). THERE IS NO GREATER PIMP THAN THE MEDIA. THEY ARE EXPERTS IN WHORING SOMETHING OUT UNTIL IT IS BROKEN, DRIED UP, AND NO LONGER OF USE TO THEM. DO NOT LET YOURSELVES BE MANIPULATED BY THIS SLIGHT OF HAND BULLS–T.

OK … I’M DONE.

[chitoryu12]

Because he used capslock, it is now impossible to not read that as the lyrics to a Disturbed song.