Author Topic: Another day, another school shooting  (Read 16823 times)

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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2013, 08:53:41 pm »
The difference in US size, population, and culture shouldn't prevent us from beneficial reform, kinda like what Mant said about healthcare reform. Obviously we can't reverse thousands of laws overnight, but that's not how we would begin implementation, anyway.
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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2013, 08:56:56 pm »
But Ravy, we register cars and other vehicles. Maybe I'm optimistic, but if we and our low population density can successfully register vehicles, I don't know why we can't do so with guns.

And when Canada had a gun registry (they being far less dense as a society) they had results around 75% compliance (which is misleadingly low because a lot of registration was done at the last minute and late. So some of the last minute registrations and all of the late registrations are included in the "non-compliance" section).

I...never said I was against registration.  That's actually a good idea.

I'm confused now, were we talking about just registration, or the idea of a gun ban of some sorts?  If its the former, then that, in my eyes, poses no problems outside bitchy right-wingers being their typical, petulant, childish selves.
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Offline Ironchew

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2013, 09:12:15 pm »
Didn't miss much, Queen; Chit and Mant are berating one another.

As for the "US is a special snowflake," it kinda is, in this regard.  Each nation is unique, you can't just apply the laws of one nation to another, it won't work unless the laws are incredibly narrow in scope and small in effect.  The US is, first and foremost, a huge country, in terms of pure land mass.  We're around 25% larger (the US clocks in at 9,826,675 sq. km, whereas Australia is 7,692,024 sq. km), and that's not an insignificant size difference.  That's a LOT of area to police, and also a LOT of area in which to hide from the police.  Hell, we've still got reasonably successful moonshine (illegal liquor) operations going on, nowadays.

America has a population of approximately 317,000,000 people.  If 1% of the population were part of a dedicated anti-gun taskforce, that'd 3,170,000 people spread out across 9,826,675 square kilometers, or one man patrolling an area of around 3.1 square kilometers; not an insignificant area for a single person to attempt to control.  That's just the patrolmen; this isn't taking account to the people needed to get the necessary supplies to the patrolmen like food and water, the people needed to keep all their equipment running, the team (or teams) of people coordinating all the necessary logistics, communication personnel, and so on.  It'd be a huge undertaking.

Policing in the United States is a huge undertaking, I agree. We still manage to get it done for enforcing all sorts of other laws, though. Try broadcasting a pirate station and see how fast it takes for the FCC to come knocking.

The gun laws we have work reasonably well when adequately enforced.  We do not need legislation like Australia or the UK.  What we need is better enforcement, and for loopholes in unlicensed gun acquisition to be closed.  This is far, FAR simpler and doesn't tread on not just an amendment to the Constitution, and by extension the Constitution itself, but the Bill of Rights, something many people consider to be a document of almost equal importance to the Bible.  To enforce near-draconian gun control legislation would require the removal of one of the founding rights of our nation, something that's been backed up by generation after generation of legal precedent.  Again, that's only if you could find a way to adequately enforce it, which would be a logistical nightmare.

In short, we don't need your laws.  We need better enforcement of the ones we've already go in place.

We've passed gun control legislation before in this country (federal registration for owning fully automatic weapons, etc.) without the 2nd amendment fundies raising too much of a ruckus, and I don't see any constitutional objections to passing more of it. What we have standing in the way of meaningful reform is, as usual, the arms manufacturers. A fundamentalist interpretation of the 2nd amendment is highly profitable for their industry. They will eventually pass their own gun control legislation outlawing 3D printed guns (yes, it's not that difficult to make guns with machine tools, but far more people will be 3D printing them and it will cut into arms manufacturers' profits), exposing them as filthy hypocrites if the media doesn't decide to play along. It would be trivial to pass gun control legislation without a tiny fraction of industry lobbyists being a spanner in the works.
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Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2013, 11:12:12 pm »
If y'all want to personally attack each other instead of debating each other's ideas or viewpoints, then take it to flame and burn, please.  Y'all know who you are.

Does this apply to my post as well? 'cause I don't think that pointing out that his condescension was unnecessary, as well as ironic, is a personal attack.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2013, 11:55:08 pm »
...?

My point is that the Republican party only seems to acknowledge mental illness when it benefits them.

Which was a response to your second ETA

My prior point is the the mental illness card is a complete red herring that is intended to either play on our fear "the mentally ill have guns and are scary*" or our sympathies "those poor mentally ill just need the proper mental health care." And while we are paranoid of the mentally ill or contemplating proper mental health care, we get off the topic of gun control. The media has not ignored this point. I've heard Rush Limbaugh, I've heard Wayne La Pierre, I've heard Fox news play this card 11 months ago. And the reason we continue to hear this point is because it gets our attention off the point that the more guns a society has the more dangerous it is. Not to mention the obvious, the easier it is for ANYONE to get a gun (thanks America) the easier it is for dangerous individuals to get guns.

Alright?  I'm not sure what this has to do with my surprise that the Republicans actually acknowledged mental health as a thing, even if it's for their own ends.

I didn't miss your point because I wasn't intending to argue the point in the first place.
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Offline Damen

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2013, 12:04:59 am »
It tickles me how people seem to think my suggestion that we just drop this discussion was because the topic is "taboo" or it's too "emotional" or some such tripe when I neither said nor implied any such thing.

I said we should just drop it because anyone who has an opinion on this subject has dug in on that opinion, has no intention of changing their minds and all that comes from continuing the conversation is drama and resentment.

If any of you want to call the "other side" dickheads, then just go on and call them dickheads but stop trying to guise it as a debate, do it in F&B and don't stick words in my mouth.

But just remember, fostering an Us vs. Them mindset (i.e. "gun-grabbers" vs. "gun-humpers") is the reason these debates go nowhere; everyone is just seeing That Dickhead Over There and not bothering to take the time to find common ground because everyone thinks that compromise in this debate means the other guy comes to your way of thinking when that isn't going to happen.

I don't really plan on maintaining a presence in this thread, I just wanted to clear up my stance on the matter.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2013, 12:25:00 am »
Can I still claim to be a "gun humper" if I think that gun registrations and licenses are a good thing? Im not sure if you could ever pass such a law in USA due to the constitution and more importantly the huge amount of people who seem to worship that particular part of constitution, but if speaking about countries and gun laws in general I believe that the regulation of firearms is quite important.

And funnily enough, I really am in an opposite land since I think Finland has ENOUGH regulation already. Some of it should be changed to prioritize on things that actually matter and some regulations could even be loosened a bit but I think we are pretty close to good gun laws.
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Offline SpaceProg

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #82 on: December 17, 2013, 02:00:36 am »
If y'all want to personally attack each other instead of debating each other's ideas or viewpoints, then take it to flame and burn, please.  Y'all know who you are.

Does this apply to my post as well? 'cause I don't think that pointing out that his condescension was unnecessary, as well as ironic, is a personal attack.

^No, it doesn't. 



Just everyone keep in mind that in a debate, you attack what your opponent(s) say, not them personally. 

As always, opponents can also debate personally having at it as tooth and claw all they want in Flame and Burn, but outside of there, it's only the viewpoints, opinions, statements, etc. that are attacked.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 02:02:43 am by SpaceProg »

Offline Sylvana

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2013, 02:35:29 am »
(click to show/hide)
In short, we don't need your laws.  We need better enforcement of the ones we've already go in place.

The thing is, you dont.
America is an extremely large, and very populated country. This does make certain things logistically difficult, but does not make anything impossible. The thing that astounds me is how the current state of America drowning in guns is seen as a valid excuse to not do anything about the problem.

With just the current level of law enforcement, things can be changed. Decent gun control laws dont magically cause firearms to pop out of existence, but they do limit the purchase there of. One would say start with making gun sales illegal. This allows everyone to keep their guns, but dramatically hampers anyone trying to get new guns. Then institute a program promoting that people turn in their guns for destruction at police stations.

Both of those are incredibly easy to enforce, and will have a dramatic effect and reduction on gun related violence over time. You dont need police going round collecting everyone's guns. That would be stupid. However, making the trade and sale of firearms restricted allows for police to collect firearms when they happen upon them.

There are so many simple legal solutions that will greatly assist the police in their duties, and that will reduce gun violence while not stopping guns from being sold at all. Literally something as simple as a firearms registry. I know Americans are all paranoid about the government knowing where all the gun owners are, but they already know where all the car drivers are so really it is not something to get worked up over. Something as simple as a linking a gun to a persons ID number, and making all unregistered firearms illegal. Provide a window period for registration, and make registration during that period either free or cost less than ammo. (personally though, I feel if you can afford a gun you can afford to pay for the things registration)

With just that legislation, police can over time confiscate any unregistered firearms reducing the number of guns in the country, and the registration process make gun purchases more responsible. With the gun registration, police would theoretically also have access to the ballistic information of the guns which could help them solve crimes committed with stolen firearms.

These suggestions do not violate the second amendment, they are not readily open to abuse, require no extra manpower or cost, would help the police in their duties and will influence the gun violence problem in America. I encourage those who support gun ownership to provide a definitive flaw in my proposal.

One last little bit:
Most gun laws introduced since Sany hook have loosened gun laws.

Online RavynousHunter

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #84 on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:03 am »
Can I still claim to be a "gun humper" if I think that gun registrations and licenses are a good thing?

Just the same as how you can be a Christian and not beat people over the head with it.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2013, 03:08:36 pm »
Can I still claim to be a "gun humper" if I think that gun registrations and licenses are a good thing?

Just the same as how you can be a Christian and not beat people over the head with it.

I AM A LIVING PARADOX! This might mean that there are colours other than black and white. That people who aren't with me might not necessarily be against me either... This is way too frightening and complex!
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2013, 03:33:18 pm »
Can I still claim to be a "gun humper" if I think that gun registrations and licenses are a good thing?

Just the same as how you can be a Christian and not beat people over the head with it.

I AM A LIVING PARADOX! This might mean that there are colours other than black and white. That people who aren't with me might not necessarily be against me either... This is way too frightening and complex!

Or maybe while there is gray area, there are still black and white extremes and labeling the extremes as "gun-humpers" speaks nothing to those who may lean towards a pro-gun side but not be so extreme.

I've said it before, but one of the best posts I've read during the whole gun debate was made by Old Viking, a gun owner. If you asked me a thousand times, I would never refer to him as a "gun-humper" or an extremist, and would instead refer to him as a reasonable gun owner.

I'll continue to use "gun-humpers" to refer to the extremists though. Why give gun extremists a soapbox from which to spew their bile?

As for how anyone else uses "gun-humper" well, I'll let them decide to whom they apply the term to.

Offline SpaceProg

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2013, 03:38:41 pm »
Can I still claim to be a "gun humper" if I think that gun registrations and licenses are a good thing?

Just the same as how you can be a Christian and not beat people over the head with it.

I AM A LIVING PARADOX! This might mean that there are colours other than black and white. That people who aren't with me might not necessarily be against me either... This is way too frightening and complex!

I know the colour 'mauve' freaks me out.




Hey, to paraphrase Joss Whedon:   "Anger, pain, death, sadness;  that's good stuff; but for god's sake, tell a joke once in a while."


Please return to your previously scheduled debate.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 03:41:43 pm by SpaceProg »

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2013, 04:56:29 pm »
Can I still claim to be a "gun humper" if I think that gun registrations and licenses are a good thing?

Just the same as how you can be a Christian and not beat people over the head with it.

I AM A LIVING PARADOX! This might mean that there are colours other than black and white. That people who aren't with me might not necessarily be against me either... This is way too frightening and complex!

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Offline Stormwarden

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Re: Another day, another school shooting
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2013, 09:53:26 pm »
I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

What really needs to happen is a full state-by-state review of gun laws. Get gun owners and law enforcement in on the debate. Look at what's on the books and get rid of all the crap that's unconstitutional, unenforceable, or otherwise completely and utterly ineffective. Then maybe we simplify the code so that people can understand it in a way that won't get the lawyers another paycheck or the police involved. And yes, a neutral party should be involved (within the country).

Yes, it will take time (years, if not decades), it will take patience, and it will mean using one's head for something other than more political BS, but maybe it'll actually get something DONE. One of the big problems with gun laws is that they vary wildly not just state-to-state, but county-to-county as well. A concealed-carry handgun that's legal in one county may be completely illegal in another. I don't think I need to explain how this can cause a lot of problems.


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