Dangerous Idea: Democracy is Overrated

[Valerius]

Note: we've basically created world peace.

I think we're a far ways away from world peace, but that said, it does seem like we're going to war a whole lot less than we were a few centuries ago.

Regarding the debate about democracy, a lot of the problems seem to deal with education (or a lack thereof). I don't really find it surprising that the US has both a subpar education system (at least compared to most other developed countries) as well as having a lot of idiots in power. Focusing on the education system alone will by no means fix everything wrong with democracy, but I'm sure it would help significantly.

[Witchyjoshy]

Note: we've basically created world peace.

You have a very interesting definition of "peace".

[Lt. Fred]

Note: we've basically created world peace.

You have a very interesting definition of "peace".

Or maybe I have an interesting definition of "basically".

[Sylvana]

Well, we could make people take a test to see if they should be able to vote, similar to how immigrants need to take a test to become a citizen. It would be like a drivers license and they'd have to take it again every few years to see how much they retained as well as kept up with current events.

Systems like that are easily exploited by those in power to disenfranchise their political opponents and/or underprivileged groups.

Jim Crow and literacy tests jump to mind.

Is that really applicable anymore?
America is a country where all children have access to education. It may not be the best education in the world, but it is available to all. Everyone of all backgrounds should be literate enough to be able to perform a test based on the policies of the politicians at the very least. To be quite honest, people who are not literate enough really shouldn't be allowed many of the privileges of being an adult, especially things like voting and signing contracts.

I was just thinking about this, and I wonder if this would really harm minorities as much as it once would have. Isn't poor education and literacy applicable to all people regardless of race? I can see just as many white people failing as I can see minorities. You will have even more people failing if you make the test require that the person voting understand what different types of government and systems actually mean. With how words like democracy and communism are thrown around it is pretty clear that a majority of people don't actually understand those terms, let alone the actual policies of their representatives.

Personally I am for an independent test on the understanding of governance, the separation of powers, and the complete policies and manifestos of all parties. This test should be available in any language the potential voter feels comfortable with and should be set up by a neutral 3rd party, preferably a group of representatives from another country. Additionally, schools and classes should be made available to actually teach people about governance.

Much of the problems in the world right now are more closely related to people not understanding what democracy actually means than one would think. The middle east, America, and large parts of Africa are perfect examples.

[Lithp]

Yes, it would. Or, rather, the potential for harm has not vanished. There was a great example of a voter test posted a while back. The questions were basically impossible to answer, & the tests were selectively given to certain groups that the politicians didn't want voting, such as blacks.

[PosthumanHeresy]

I agree with letting machines take over, as I've said in threads in the past (or aliens). Humans are stupid. We are not overall good. We are overall bad. Throughout all of human history, groups have been oppressed and exterminated. In the same generation, the Jews went from being wiped out by a genocidal madmen to trying to wipe out another group because they didn't like them. Our politicians are overwhelmingly corrupt and always have been. The most prosperous times in any nation's history have always been the most unified and conformist, while the least have always been the least unified and conformist, but have also been the most hellish for anyone outside the conforming group. The fact of the matter is, humans are not fit to rule. We have emotions. We have greed. We have faith. We have racism. We have sexism. We have homophobia. We have a million other biases. If we were governed by a machine council whose prime directive is "All people are equal. All should be happy, so long as their happiness does not cause undue suffering to others", we'd live in an amazing land. We'd have a true utopia. One world machine government. If someone is insanely rich, some is taken to take care of others. It's not that they can't be rich, but they can't be too rich. The middle class, the poor and the rich would be closer together. The richest people would be millionaires, not billionaires. The poorest would still make tens of thousands of dollars. Sports players would be paid less than teachers. Jobs would pay what they deserve, not what is arbitrarily decided. A job that helps people would always pay better than a job that does not. Psychologists and doctors would be better paid than actors. Creators would still be well paid, but not better than people who save lives. EMTs would get a bigger check than even the most skilled painters. And the "minimum wage" jobs that exist now would also get better payment, because without them, our world would halt. I'd love to see the poor band together and everyone quit places like Walmart and McDonalds at once, and everyone refuse to work there until they got paid fair wages, but it will never happen.

[Sigmaleph]

Jim Crow and literacy tests jump to mind.

Is that really applicable anymore?
America is a country where all children have access to education. It may not be the best education in the world, but it is available to all. Everyone of all backgrounds should be literate enough to be able to perform a test based on the policies of the politicians at the very least. To be quite honest, people who are not literate enough really shouldn't be allowed many of the privileges of being an adult, especially things like voting and signing contracts.

They wouldn't take the form of literacy tests, nowadays. It'd be, say, civics tests, where people who went to private schools and expensive universities would have a significant advantage. People who can afford an education tend to do better in academic settings, if only because they are more used to them. So you'd end up with wealthier being overrepresented in the allowed voter population. Democracy as-is is already heavily biased towards people with money, there's no need to make it more so.

And that's in the ideal case where everything runs properly and the tests are administered fairly and so on. In practice, it's going to add yet another layer of bureaucracy that can be manipulated in favour of the desired result.

[SimSim]

Well, we could make people take a test to see if they should be able to vote, similar to how immigrants need to take a test to become a citizen. It would be like a drivers license and they'd have to take it again every few years to see how much they retained as well as kept up with current events.

Systems like that are easily exploited by those in power to disenfranchise their political opponents and/or underprivileged groups.

Jim Crow and literacy tests jump to mind.

Is that really applicable anymore?
America is a country where all children have access to education. It may not be the best education in the world, but it is available to all. Everyone of all backgrounds should be literate enough to be able to perform a test based on the policies of the politicians at the very least. To be quite honest, people who are not literate enough really shouldn't be allowed many of the privileges of being an adult, especially things like voting and signing contracts.

I was just thinking about this, and I wonder if this would really harm minorities as much as it once would have. Isn't poor education and literacy applicable to all people regardless of race? I can see just as many white people failing as I can see minorities. You will have even more people failing if you make the test require that the person voting understand what different types of government and systems actually mean. With how words like democracy and communism are thrown around it is pretty clear that a majority of people don't actually understand those terms, let alone the actual policies of their representatives.

Personally I am for an independent test on the understanding of governance, the separation of powers, and the complete policies and manifestos of all parties. This test should be available in any language the potential voter feels comfortable with and should be set up by a neutral 3rd party, preferably a group of representatives from another country. Additionally, schools and classes should be made available to actually teach people about governance.

Much of the problems in the world right now are more closely related to people not understanding what democracy actually means than one would think. The middle east, America, and large parts of Africa are perfect examples.

I don't think that literacy would be used anymore if voting tests were given. I was using that as an example of how voting tests can be rigged so that certain groups are disenfranchised. It's hard to come up with a test that can't be rigged. Have questions written in a way that makes them difficult to answer, or so that an incorrect answer seems correct. Have questions that are more technical than they need to be.

[Osama bin Bambi]

Our teacher once gave this actual Jim Crow-era voting test to the class once. Not one student passed.

Also, literacy tests in general, even if they are given to all citizens, have the unfortunate side effect of making it artificially difficult for people from working-class families to vote, which would probably skew more than a few elections in favor of the people privileged enough to get better educations.

EDIT: More voting tests...

[davedan]

You also have to make sure that everyone gets the same test. The White Australia Policy went on for years on the basis of English tests. If you were of an undesirable subcutaneous melanin concentration you got harder tests. English being the language that it is, it is basically possible to make a question that no one will get right.

[Lt. Fred]

You also have to make sure that everyone gets the same test. The White Australia Policy went on for years on the basis of English tests. If you were of an undesirable subcutaneous melanin concentration you got harder tests. English being the language that it is, it is basically possible to make a question that no one will get right.

On the basis of a dictation test in whatever language we goddamn please. You're German? How about doing a dictation test in Ancient Greek?

[davedan]

You also have to make sure that everyone gets the same test. The White Australia Policy went on for years on the basis of English tests. If you were of an undesirable subcutaneous melanin concentration you got harder tests. English being the language that it is, it is basically possible to make a question that no one will get right.

On the basis of a dictation test in whatever language we goddamn please. You're German? How about doing a dictation test in Ancient Greek?

Shut up Darkie and recite the first 4 lines of Gilgamesh in the original Sumerian.

[dpareja]

You also have to make sure that everyone gets the same test. The White Australia Policy went on for years on the basis of English tests. If you were of an undesirable subcutaneous melanin concentration you got harder tests. English being the language that it is, it is basically possible to make a question that no one will get right.

On the basis of a dictation test in whatever language we goddamn please. You're German? How about doing a dictation test in Ancient Greek?

Shut up Darkie and recite the first 4 lines of Gilgamesh in the original Sumerian.

And you, recite the entirety of Beowulf in Old English! And then the entire Canterbury Tales in Middle English!

(What? You didn't finish? Why didn't you finish? Chaucer never finishing it is no excuse for you not finishing it! Application denied!)

[Cerim Treascair]

I recall my english classes HATING me because nobody save me and the teacher understood Middle English.  I got fucking SHAKESPEARE up in there.

[Witchyjoshy]

I'm kinda curious as to what sort of test that upper class people would have a harder time passing than lower class people?

You know, the reverse of the typical expectations.