Author Topic: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?  (Read 10936 times)

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Offline ironbite

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2015, 09:34:40 am »
*munches popcorn*

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2015, 04:59:30 pm »
Then there's the episode where he flatly refused to let Canada and the US alleviate a famine in India during WWII.

That's because officials in the Raj thought the famine wasn't a big deal, and told him as much.  Their misunderstandings and underestimations of the famine are better ascribed to incomplete information and communications problems, rather than malign indifference.  Churchill was operating based on deeply flawed reports.

That's still no excuse not to let your allies help when you can't.

Except, again, he was relying on reports saying it wasn't a big deal.  The British and Indian officials telling him what was going on legitimately didn't understand how bad the problem was.  This is partly because of Bengal's awful system of agricultural statistics, which was based on the land tax system.  See, revenue officers would be the ones giving crop forecasts, based on estimations of the area and yield of planted areas.  Besides, it seems really out of character for Churchill to simply give a cold shoulder to famine victims.  He was a racist and an imperialist, yes, but he was more paternalistic than exploitative regarding Britain's colonial subjects.  And considering his genuine concern for the welfare of the Iraqis (who it should be noted were actively rebelling at the time), he doesn't seem like the type of person who would ignore millions of innocent Bengalis starving to death.

Even if he had known, there wasn't much he (or indeed, anybody) could have done.  Shipping lanes across the Indian and Pacific Oceans were under threat from the Japanese navy.  As for internal help, the entirety of India was suffering from poor harvests, and what help they could have given was handicapped by a complex system of trade barriers.

tl;dr Blaming Churchill for the tragedy in Bengal ignores a lot of context.

Or the one where he wanted to invade Russia after defeating Germany.

No, he had plans for an invasion.  Merely having a contingency plan for a war doesn't mean you actually want one.  America had plans to invade Mexico in the 1930s, but nobody calls FDR a warmonger (at least, not for that reason).

I thought he'd ordered the plans to be drawn up, though

Maybe he did, but that doesn't mean he wanted to use them.  Better to have something and not need it than need it and not have it.

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2015, 05:33:35 pm »
Or the one where he wanted to invade Russia after defeating Germany.

No, he had plans for an invasion.  Merely having a contingency plan for a war doesn't mean you actually want one.  America had plans to invade Mexico in the 1930s, but nobody calls FDR a warmonger (at least, not for that reason).

I thought he'd ordered the plans to be drawn up, though

Maybe he did, but that doesn't mean he wanted to use them.  Better to have something and not need it than need it and not have it.

Lots of people thought that after Germany had fallen the war would continue between USSR and the other Allies. Germans thought that and Stalin probably would have done that if he had believed they had a chance to win. Some US generals also suggested rearming the Germans and using them as allies in the fight against USSR.

...And IF they had been able to get public support for such a war they might have succeeded as USSR had taken a beating in the war and still relied on supplies from USA. But I doubt many of the countries would have agreed on such a war. I mean, Japan was still fighting and after few years of war the civilians were getting exhausted and besides, turning against an ally just because they might become a future enemy does not sound nice. (Even if that did happen eventually.)

And I'm not saying that they definitely should have done that, and I wholly agree that taking down Hitler's regime was more important. If Hitler hadn't been stopped he probably would have become a worse monster than Stalin was.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2015, 08:35:23 pm »
Then there's the episode where he flatly refused to let Canada and the US alleviate a famine in India during WWII.

That's because officials in the Raj thought the famine wasn't a big deal, and told him as much.  Their misunderstandings and underestimations of the famine are better ascribed to incomplete information and communications problems, rather than malign indifference.  Churchill was operating based on deeply flawed reports.

That's still no excuse not to let your allies help when you can't.

Except, again, he was relying on reports saying it wasn't a big deal.  The British and Indian officials telling him what was going on legitimately didn't understand how bad the problem was.  This is partly because of Bengal's awful system of agricultural statistics, which was based on the land tax system.  See, revenue officers would be the ones giving crop forecasts, based on estimations of the area and yield of planted areas.  Besides, it seems really out of character for Churchill to simply give a cold shoulder to famine victims.  He was a racist and an imperialist, yes, but he was more paternalistic than exploitative regarding Britain's colonial subjects.  And considering his genuine concern for the welfare of the Iraqis (who it should be noted were actively rebelling at the time), he doesn't seem like the type of person who would ignore millions of innocent Bengalis starving to death.

Even if he had known, there wasn't much he (or indeed, anybody) could have done.  Shipping lanes across the Indian and Pacific Oceans were under threat from the Japanese navy.  As for internal help, the entirety of India was suffering from poor harvests, and what help they could have given was handicapped by a complex system of trade barriers.

tl;dr Blaming Churchill for the tragedy in Bengal ignores a lot of context.

1. Trade barriers which could probably have been lowered if Churchill had agreed to let the Americans and Canadians help. (And it wouldn't necessarily have been trade; it would probably have been outright aid.)

2. Even if he thought it wasn't as bad as it was, it's still a bad move to specifically refuse to let your allies help when they offer to.

3. And presumably the Americans and Canadians knew that the Japanese represented a threat to any shipping in the area, and were willing to help in spite of that.

Churchill might not have thought the famine was as bad as it was, but that's still no excuse for refusing to let the US and Canada help alleviate even what famine he thought there was when they were willing to, able to, and ready to assume the risks of doing so. It might not be fair to blame him solely for the famine, but he's not blameless in the matter.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2015, 03:24:37 am »
Only it seemed as if you were almost suggesting the Beeb was unusual and had an unusual responsibility since it is funded involuntarily through tax; when of course all media is funded by everyone through advertising without personal choice. Certainly you have no choice but to fund the moderate and honest BBC as well as the raving lunacy of Rupert Murdock and co. Interesting that the first seems to be the only one you care about but hey.

You genuinely don't have a clue do you?

Not only are there ways to avoid receiving adverts, but the money paid to air them isn't coming out of your pocket (unless you're actually paying a subscription to some TV service which again is OPTIONAL).

Just by the act of owning a TV and any means of making it display programming (so freeview, which has no subsciption fees attached) is enough to incur an involuntary fee to support the BBC even if I want nothing to do with the content they produce.

It's a racket pure and simple.

There is indeed no way to avoid paying for advertising, no way at all, since it is funded through increases in the price of the advertised products. Advertisers get to distort the market in their favour and keep out innovative, enterprising new companies that can do their job better*, and Murdock gets to make up a pack of lies with impunity and you get to act smug. Everyone's happy except sensible people.

The BBC is also funded involuntarily, but is, of course, aggressively regulated by the politicians you elect and therefore control. It's also legislatively obliged to be basically sensible, while Murdock is free to advertise for brown-shirted fascists and the latest brand of poison gas for Muslims.

If you think the latter is more transparent - or morally superior - you're either a liar or a buffoon. Which?

* This is the sole purpose of advertising, one of the biggest market distortions going.

Edit to add: and of course the British did human experiments involving gas on Indian subjects with mustard gas.

Not unusual for the time.

So moral equivalency. You've given up your right to ever criticise anyone ever again, of course. I will cite this the next time you do so.

Quote
It's not really defensible as an action but then neither is [any of the massive list of atrocities committed by axis nations] or the shenanigans the yanks were up to at the time.

The first clause is sufficient in this sentence and the second a dishonest attempt to forgive what you admit is unforgivable.

To respond to UP:

The idea that Churchill was sincerely concerned about the welfare of his Indian victims is ridiculous and your argument that Churchill was not "exploitative" is flatly untrue.

"(The) starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks"

"If food is so scarce, why hasn’t Gandhi died yet?"

He was regarded, accurately, at the time as one of the most appalling and vicious racists (and, just for fun, anti-semites!) in the UK. Churchill once had an entire ethnic group in Kenya thrown into concentration camps and tortured - all of them. This is not someone who cares about the deaths of the subhuman.

Churchill's remarks about the use of poison gas on freedom fighters should be seen as an attempt at media management, not sincere. After all, his position was that, hopefully, poison gas would not be necessary since due to the natural cowardice of the rebelling Iraqis it would not be necessary. If it turned out to be I'm sure he'd hardly have batted an eye.

Quote
Maybe he did, but that doesn't mean he wanted to use them.  Better to have something and not need it than need it and not have it.

Please note: Britain actually did invade Russia after WW1, on Churchill's insistence.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 03:41:29 am by Lt. Fred »
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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2015, 11:42:41 am »
the money paid to air them isn't coming out of your pocket
Then where is it coming from? Are you actually not buying anything from companies that pay for advertising?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2015, 11:53:45 am »
Then there's the episode where he flatly refused to let Canada and the US alleviate a famine in India during WWII.

That's because officials in the Raj thought the famine wasn't a big deal, and told him as much.  Their misunderstandings and underestimations of the famine are better ascribed to incomplete information and communications problems, rather than malign indifference.  Churchill was operating based on deeply flawed reports.

That's still no excuse not to let your allies help when you can't.

Except, again, he was relying on reports saying it wasn't a big deal.  The British and Indian officials telling him what was going on legitimately didn't understand how bad the problem was.  This is partly because of Bengal's awful system of agricultural statistics, which was based on the land tax system.  See, revenue officers would be the ones giving crop forecasts, based on estimations of the area and yield of planted areas.  Besides, it seems really out of character for Churchill to simply give a cold shoulder to famine victims.  He was a racist and an imperialist, yes, but he was more paternalistic than exploitative regarding Britain's colonial subjects.  And considering his genuine concern for the welfare of the Iraqis (who it should be noted were actively rebelling at the time), he doesn't seem like the type of person who would ignore millions of innocent Bengalis starving to death.

Even if he had known, there wasn't much he (or indeed, anybody) could have done.  Shipping lanes across the Indian and Pacific Oceans were under threat from the Japanese navy.  As for internal help, the entirety of India was suffering from poor harvests, and what help they could have given was handicapped by a complex system of trade barriers.

tl;dr Blaming Churchill for the tragedy in Bengal ignores a lot of context.

1. Trade barriers which could probably have been lowered if Churchill had agreed to let the Americans and Canadians help. (And it wouldn't necessarily have been trade; it would probably have been outright aid.)

2. Even if he thought it wasn't as bad as it was, it's still a bad move to specifically refuse to let your allies help when they offer to.

3. And presumably the Americans and Canadians knew that the Japanese represented a threat to any shipping in the area, and were willing to help in spite of that.

Churchill might not have thought the famine was as bad as it was, but that's still no excuse for refusing to let the US and Canada help alleviate even what famine he thought there was when they were willing to, able to, and ready to assume the risks of doing so. It might not be fair to blame him solely for the famine, but he's not blameless in the matter.

When you're a head of state, you have to make tough decisions.  From his perspective, it wasn't worth it.  Maybe he would have given the go ahead if he'd known how bad things were, but that's just speculation.  He certainly deserves criticism for what happened, I'll agree with you on that.

To respond to UP:

The idea that Churchill was sincerely concerned about the welfare of his Indian victims is ridiculous and your argument that Churchill was not "exploitative" is flatly untrue.

"(The) starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks"

"If food is so scarce, why hasn’t Gandhi died yet?"

If he knew how bad it was, I doubt he would have been so flippant.

He was regarded, accurately, at the time as one of the most appalling and vicious racists (and, just for fun, anti-semites!) in the UK.

An anti-Semite who supported Zionism.  Churchill's views on Jews were... complicated.  He distinguished between "national" and "international" Jews, praising the former and condemning the latter.  Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of reason to call those views anti-Semitic, but by the standards of the day, such distinctions were actually quite tolerant.

Churchill once had an entire ethnic group in Kenya thrown into concentration camps and tortured - all of them.

Hadn't heard about that.  Care to elaborate?

This is not someone who cares about the deaths of the subhuman.

Then why was he so angry about the Amritsar massacre?

Churchill's remarks about the use of poison gas on freedom fighters should be seen as an attempt at media management, not sincere. After all, his position was that, hopefully, poison gas would not be necessary since due to the natural cowardice of the rebelling Iraqis it would not be necessary. If it turned out to be I'm sure he'd hardly have batted an eye.

If it were "media management," why would he advocate the use of illegal weapons?

Quote
Maybe he did, but that doesn't mean he wanted to use them.  Better to have something and not need it than need it and not have it.

Please note: Britain actually did invade Russia after WW1, on Churchill's insistence.

1. Do you have any evidence that it was on Churchill's insistence?

2. The circumstances were completely different.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2015, 12:44:09 pm »
When you're a head of state, you have to make tough decisions.  From his perspective, it wasn't worth it.  Maybe he would have given the go ahead if he'd known how bad things were, but that's just speculation.  He certainly deserves criticism for what happened, I'll agree with you on that.

Minor clarification: he wasn't head of state (that was George VI), just head of government. (Which isn't to say he wasn't the one making the final call.)

This is not someone who cares about the deaths of the subhuman.

Then why was he so angry about the Amritsar massacre?

He was angry about it, but I think it was more for the damage it did the British image, not so much for the deaths as such. He might not have cared much (and thought that Indians were better off under British rule than they would be under self-rule), but he knew full well other people would care and didn't like what they would think of the British Empire if they just let Dyer go unpunished for his actions.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2015, 08:58:15 pm »
If you look at Gallipoli and Anzio I'm not sure how you can conclude that Churchill gave much of a shit about the lives anybody if sacrifices had to be made for the sake of the empire.

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2015, 09:05:36 pm »
Sounds like if the whole war thing had not happened or happened differently, Hitler and Churchill would have been good friends. Lots of expunge the lesser races stuff to talk about between them.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2015, 09:56:23 pm »
If you look at Gallipoli and Anzio I'm not sure how you can conclude that Churchill gave much of a shit about the lives anybody if sacrifices had to be made for the sake of the empire.

Gallipoli wasn't actually Churchill's idea.  Yes, he was the one who suggested attacking the Dardanelles, but his plan was very different.  While he did make mistakes, you really can't lay all (or even most) of the blame at his feet, since he really didn't have much control over how the campaign went.

It was the same basic deal with Anzio.  Churchill got much of the blame for something that wasn't entirely his fault.  There were other problems, such as flawed intelligence and dithering commanders.  While he was more responsible for what happened at Anzio than at Gallipoli, the other factors have to be considered.  Besides, Anzio was nowhere near as bad as Gallipoli.  It was a victory, for one thing, and there were far fewer casualties.

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2015, 10:59:34 pm »
If you look at Gallipoli and Anzio I'm not sure how you can conclude that Churchill gave much of a shit about the lives anybody if sacrifices had to be made for the sake of the empire.

Gallipoli wasn't actually Churchill's idea.  Yes, he was the one who suggested attacking the Dardanelles, but his plan was very different.  While he did make mistakes, you really can't lay all (or even most) of the blame at his feet, since he really didn't have much control over how the campaign went.

It was the same basic deal with Anzio.  Churchill got much of the blame for something that wasn't entirely his fault.  There were other problems, such as flawed intelligence and dithering commanders.  While he was more responsible for what happened at Anzio than at Gallipoli, the other factors have to be considered.  Besides, Anzio was nowhere near as bad as Gallipoli.  It was a victory, for one thing, and there were far fewer casualties.

And how exactly does that change his willingness to sacrifice pawns people for the empire?

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2015, 11:41:22 pm »
To respond to UP:

The idea that Churchill was sincerely concerned about the welfare of his Indian victims is ridiculous and your argument that Churchill was not "exploitative" is flatly untrue.

"(The) starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks"

"If food is so scarce, why hasn’t Gandhi died yet?"

If he knew how bad it was, I doubt he would have been so flippant.

I don't.

Quote
He was regarded, accurately, at the time as one of the most appalling and vicious racists (and, just for fun, anti-semites!) in the UK.

An anti-Semite who supported Zionism.

Correct.

Quote
by the standards of the day, such distinctions were actually quite tolerant.

Nonsense. He was a run-of-the-mill 1930s Jew-hating bastard. His views on Empire were regarded as extreme by Tories in the 40s.

Quote
Churchill once had an entire ethnic group in Kenya thrown into concentration camps and tortured - all of them.

Hadn't heard about that.  Care to elaborate?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya-y/dp/1844135489

Is the best sauce, but

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/21/kenya-british-empire-myths-historians

will do.

Quote
Churchill's remarks about the use of poison gas on freedom fighters should be seen as an attempt at media management, not sincere. After all, his position was that, hopefully, poison gas would not be necessary since due to the natural cowardice of the rebelling Iraqis it would not be necessary. If it turned out to be I'm sure he'd hardly have batted an eye.

If it were "media management," why would he advocate the use of illegal weapons?

Because, as he said, the Americans probably wouldn't give a shit unless they used poison.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2015, 12:19:13 am »
If you look at Gallipoli and Anzio I'm not sure how you can conclude that Churchill gave much of a shit about the lives anybody if sacrifices had to be made for the sake of the empire.

Gallipoli wasn't actually Churchill's idea.  Yes, he was the one who suggested attacking the Dardanelles, but his plan was very different.  While he did make mistakes, you really can't lay all (or even most) of the blame at his feet, since he really didn't have much control over how the campaign went.

It was the same basic deal with Anzio.  Churchill got much of the blame for something that wasn't entirely his fault.  There were other problems, such as flawed intelligence and dithering commanders.  While he was more responsible for what happened at Anzio than at Gallipoli, the other factors have to be considered.  Besides, Anzio was nowhere near as bad as Gallipoli.  It was a victory, for one thing, and there were far fewer casualties.

And how exactly does that change his willingness to sacrifice pawns people for the empire?

Do you honestly expect him to not make sacrifices in a World War?

Quote
by the standards of the day, such distinctions were actually quite tolerant.

Nonsense. He was a run-of-the-mill 1930s Jew-hating bastard. His views on Empire were regarded as extreme by Tories in the 40s.

Were his views really that extreme by the standards of the time?  Care to give a link?

Quote
Churchill once had an entire ethnic group in Kenya thrown into concentration camps and tortured - all of them.

Hadn't heard about that.  Care to elaborate?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya-y/dp/1844135489

Is the best sauce, but

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/21/kenya-british-empire-myths-historians

will do.[/quote]

You're citing Elkins?  Seriously?

The book's sources and her methodology in calculating the numbers of Kenyans killed by the British in the 1950s were denounced in no uncertain terms by many historians -including Kenyan historians- as being sensationalist, tendentious and unsubstantiated.

Fact is, Elkins destroyed her credibility by vastly exaggerating British atrocities and overestimating the number of victims.  She did groundbreaking research, to be sure, but her biases rendered her book worthless as a serious historical text.

Quote
Churchill's remarks about the use of poison gas on freedom fighters should be seen as an attempt at media management, not sincere. After all, his position was that, hopefully, poison gas would not be necessary since due to the natural cowardice of the rebelling Iraqis it would not be necessary. If it turned out to be I'm sure he'd hardly have batted an eye.

If it were "media management," why would he advocate the use of illegal weapons?

Because, as he said, the Americans probably wouldn't give a shit unless they used poison.

Where did he say that?

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Not a logical fallacy if it's politically convenient to progressives?
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2015, 01:06:47 am »
Quote
Churchill once had an entire ethnic group in Kenya thrown into concentration camps and tortured - all of them.

Hadn't heard about that.  Care to elaborate?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya-y/dp/1844135489

Is the best sauce, but

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/21/kenya-british-empire-myths-historians

will do.

You're citing Elkins?  Seriously?

The book's sources and her methodology in calculating the numbers of Kenyans killed by the British in the 1950s were denounced in no uncertain terms by many historians -including Kenyan historians- as being sensationalist, tendentious and unsubstantiated.

Fact is, Elkins destroyed her credibility by vastly exaggerating British atrocities and overestimating the number of victims.  She did groundbreaking research, to be sure, but her biases rendered her book worthless as a serious historical text. [/quote]

This is all just nonsense. The historical consensus is that Elkins was dead right.

Quote
Churchill's remarks about the use of poison gas on freedom fighters should be seen as an attempt at media management, not sincere. After all, his position was that, hopefully, poison gas would not be necessary since due to the natural cowardice of the rebelling Iraqis it would not be necessary. If it turned out to be I'm sure he'd hardly have batted an eye.

If it were "media management," why would he advocate the use of illegal weapons?

Because, as he said, the Americans probably wouldn't give a shit unless they used poison.

Where did he say that?
[/quote]

This is how I read the above paragraph we've been discussing.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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