Author Topic: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill  (Read 4376 times)

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Offline Material Defender

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2013, 11:39:31 am »
I think out of womb viability (That is, without major defects) should be the only major determining factor in this kind debate. This is just trying to make the whole system more punishing.

Though more sights of people voting against best interests 100% over this fucking abortion issue.
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2013, 03:43:02 pm »
The thing is, those questions are irrelevant within the debate of abortion. regardless of the medical technologies invasive nature or accuracy the final choice still belongs to the woman involved. As such, all things like these bills and the person-hood bills do is attempt to shame, guilt trip, badger and traumatize pregnant women as well as deny access to healthcare for poor women.

If the technology becomes much more accurate and less invasive it would be great for any pregnant woman especially those who wish to see how the development is going and such, however doing such things with women who are trying to seek an abortion is just plain anti-woman abuse.

This, so much. Regardless of the test's accuracy, this completely completes violates women and shouldn't have another second wasted on it.
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Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2013, 04:48:53 pm »
If they invented ultrasounds that were just wands that you wave over the stomach they would insist on the vagina shaming wand instead

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2013, 08:21:39 pm »
Just to add something to considered in the conversation, most abortion doctors perform ultrasounds before abortions.  Early abortions before 6 weeks often requires inter-vaginal ultrasounds to get a good look at the pregnancy.

That does not mean I think this is in any way a good bill.
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Offline Jack Mann

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2013, 10:26:32 pm »
I suppose it is a good idea for the doctor to have a good idea what he's doing...

But yeah, bad bill.
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Offline Captain Jack Harkness

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 12:31:34 am »
The thing is, those questions are irrelevant within the debate of abortion. regardless of the medical technologies invasive nature or accuracy the final choice still belongs to the woman involved. As such, all things like these bills and the person-hood bills do is attempt to shame, guilt trip, badger and traumatize pregnant women as well as deny access to healthcare for poor women.

If the technology becomes much more accurate and less invasive it would be great for any pregnant woman especially those who wish to see how the development is going and such, however doing such things with women who are trying to seek an abortion is just plain anti-woman abuse.

This, so much. Regardless of the test's accuracy, this completely completes violates women and shouldn't have another second wasted on it.

Well, you have to keep in mind that this is only "anti-woman abuse" because of the stigma of getting an abortion to begin with?  Maybe one day society will move beyond this kind of crap.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 12:33:31 am »
The thing is, those questions are irrelevant within the debate of abortion. regardless of the medical technologies invasive nature or accuracy the final choice still belongs to the woman involved. As such, all things like these bills and the person-hood bills do is attempt to shame, guilt trip, badger and traumatize pregnant women as well as deny access to healthcare for poor women.

If the technology becomes much more accurate and less invasive it would be great for any pregnant woman especially those who wish to see how the development is going and such, however doing such things with women who are trying to seek an abortion is just plain anti-woman abuse.

This, so much. Regardless of the test's accuracy, this completely completes violates women and shouldn't have another second wasted on it.

Well, you have to keep in mind that this is only "anti-woman abuse" because of the stigma of getting an abortion to begin with?  Maybe one day society will move beyond this kind of crap.

It's not just the stigma about abortion, it's the fact that the procedure is invasive and very uncomfortable. For instance, a rape victim would probably be triggered by having to undergo this completely unnecessary procedure.
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Offline Captain Jack Harkness

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 12:40:03 am »
The thing is, those questions are irrelevant within the debate of abortion. regardless of the medical technologies invasive nature or accuracy the final choice still belongs to the woman involved. As such, all things like these bills and the person-hood bills do is attempt to shame, guilt trip, badger and traumatize pregnant women as well as deny access to healthcare for poor women.

If the technology becomes much more accurate and less invasive it would be great for any pregnant woman especially those who wish to see how the development is going and such, however doing such things with women who are trying to seek an abortion is just plain anti-woman abuse.

This, so much. Regardless of the test's accuracy, this completely completes violates women and shouldn't have another second wasted on it.

Well, you have to keep in mind that this is only "anti-woman abuse" because of the stigma of getting an abortion to begin with?  Maybe one day society will move beyond this kind of crap.

It's not just the stigma about abortion, it's the fact that the procedure is invasive and very uncomfortable. For instance, a rape victim would probably be triggered by having to undergo this completely unnecessary procedure.

I did mention that the medical technology plays a role earler.  If we can both eliminate the stigma and find ways to make the procedure better, things would maybe be much less...hated.

Meh, maybe it's a naive dream.  I guess I still dare to dream it, though.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 02:36:40 am »
The thing is, those questions are irrelevant within the debate of abortion. regardless of the medical technologies invasive nature or accuracy the final choice still belongs to the woman involved. As such, all things like these bills and the person-hood bills do is attempt to shame, guilt trip, badger and traumatize pregnant women as well as deny access to healthcare for poor women.

If the technology becomes much more accurate and less invasive it would be great for any pregnant woman especially those who wish to see how the development is going and such, however doing such things with women who are trying to seek an abortion is just plain anti-woman abuse.

This, so much. Regardless of the test's accuracy, this completely completes violates women and shouldn't have another second wasted on it.

Well, you have to keep in mind that this is only "anti-woman abuse" because of the stigma of getting an abortion to begin with?  Maybe one day society will move beyond this kind of crap.

It's not just the stigma about abortion, it's the fact that the procedure is invasive and very uncomfortable. For instance, a rape victim would probably be triggered by having to undergo this completely unnecessary procedure.

I did mention that the medical technology plays a role earler.  If we can both eliminate the stigma and find ways to make the procedure better, things would maybe be much less...hated.

Meh, maybe it's a naive dream.  I guess I still dare to dream it, though.

I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure there are more reasons besides abortion to perform this invasive kind of ultrasound.
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Offline Captain Jack Harkness

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 02:39:45 am »
The thing is, those questions are irrelevant within the debate of abortion. regardless of the medical technologies invasive nature or accuracy the final choice still belongs to the woman involved. As such, all things like these bills and the person-hood bills do is attempt to shame, guilt trip, badger and traumatize pregnant women as well as deny access to healthcare for poor women.

If the technology becomes much more accurate and less invasive it would be great for any pregnant woman especially those who wish to see how the development is going and such, however doing such things with women who are trying to seek an abortion is just plain anti-woman abuse.

This, so much. Regardless of the test's accuracy, this completely completes violates women and shouldn't have another second wasted on it.

Well, you have to keep in mind that this is only "anti-woman abuse" because of the stigma of getting an abortion to begin with?  Maybe one day society will move beyond this kind of crap.

It's not just the stigma about abortion, it's the fact that the procedure is invasive and very uncomfortable. For instance, a rape victim would probably be triggered by having to undergo this completely unnecessary procedure.

I did mention that the medical technology plays a role earler.  If we can both eliminate the stigma and find ways to make the procedure better, things would maybe be much less...hated.

Meh, maybe it's a naive dream.  I guess I still dare to dream it, though.

I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure there are more reasons besides abortion to perform this invasive kind of ultrasound.

You totally missed my point.  I was saying that maybe some day we'll have technology that makes the ultrasound obsolete.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 02:44:42 am »
The thing is, those questions are irrelevant within the debate of abortion. regardless of the medical technologies invasive nature or accuracy the final choice still belongs to the woman involved. As such, all things like these bills and the person-hood bills do is attempt to shame, guilt trip, badger and traumatize pregnant women as well as deny access to healthcare for poor women.

If the technology becomes much more accurate and less invasive it would be great for any pregnant woman especially those who wish to see how the development is going and such, however doing such things with women who are trying to seek an abortion is just plain anti-woman abuse.

This, so much. Regardless of the test's accuracy, this completely completes violates women and shouldn't have another second wasted on it.

Well, you have to keep in mind that this is only "anti-woman abuse" because of the stigma of getting an abortion to begin with?  Maybe one day society will move beyond this kind of crap.

It's not just the stigma about abortion, it's the fact that the procedure is invasive and very uncomfortable. For instance, a rape victim would probably be triggered by having to undergo this completely unnecessary procedure.

I did mention that the medical technology plays a role earler.  If we can both eliminate the stigma and find ways to make the procedure better, things would maybe be much less...hated.

Meh, maybe it's a naive dream.  I guess I still dare to dream it, though.

I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure there are more reasons besides abortion to perform this invasive kind of ultrasound.

You totally missed my point.  I was saying that maybe some day we'll have technology that makes the ultrasound obsolete.

Ah, okay. I was referring to an earlier post you made. My bad. :P
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Offline Sylvana

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 03:11:53 am »
I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure there are more reasons besides abortion to perform this invasive kind of ultrasound.

There are plenty. However, the point is that prescribing that kind of diagnostic procedure is entirely dependent on what the doctor believes to be in the best interest of the patient in his care. You will notice a lack of gynecologists amongst the groups advocating for these procedures to be put into law.

You should never legislate medicine like this. This would really be no different from say requiring doctors perform a uterus lining biopsy before administering treatment to women. Both are medical diagnostic procedures, but each have their place and time in medicine and doctors are the best people to decide when that time and place is, not legislators.

Offline MiriamM

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Re: Arkansas Heartbeat Bill
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2013, 03:19:46 am »
If they invented ultrasounds that were just wands that you wave over the stomach they would insist on the vagina shaming wand instead
AFAIK heartbeat can be detected through noninvasive means by about 8-12 weeks of pregnancy. In fact, the Arkansas bill, horrible as it is, specifically requires abdominal (ie. over the stomach) ultrasound and sneakily implies TVUS in early pregnancy by using the wording "the use of medical devices as determined by standard medical practice". So no required probings in that bill, "only" denying abortion based on relatively-comfortably-measured fetal heartbeat. Which IMHO is way worse.