Author Topic: Democratic Primaries Thread  (Read 30727 times)

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Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #225 on: May 01, 2020, 04:58:58 pm »
Oh please.

So we're all horrible standard-less monsters for not automatically believing her when we went ahead and believed others? This is honestly kind of pathetic of you. It seems like even as the allegations break down and she's revealed to be a liar, you still want to use this whole set of circumstances to wring at least some benefit even if it's just "I GOTCHA I GOTCHA GOTCHA GOTCHA YOU ARE NOT ETHICAL!!"

The only people still holding to this are bitter Bernie-stans. And its becoming more and more obvious why that's the case.

So rare it is indeed that populists deal in reality.
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Offline Id82

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #226 on: May 01, 2020, 06:01:54 pm »
How about everyone accepts that both candidates are touchy feely perverts and that we can't do anything about the choices we have now and just focus on policy?
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Offline DarkPhoenix

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #227 on: May 01, 2020, 09:06:17 pm »
Ms. Reade may well be completely full of shit.

The problem is that many of the people who screamed "BELIEVE WOMEN" when it came to Dr. Ford's allegations against then-Judge Kavanaugh are now calling into question Ms. Reade's allegations against former Vice President Biden, and did so almost immediately, before any serious vetting of Ms. Reade's claims had occurred.

Furthermore, a major group set up to help victims of sexual harassment with regards to #MeToo declined to give legal aid to Ms. Reade in her case, with the stated reason not being that her accusations were baseless (which, again, they may well be) but that doing so would put their tax status in legal jeopardy since her claims were against a Presidential candidate, which is a decidedly more dubious rationale.

So even if Ms. Reade is lying through her teeth about these claims, the way in which the people who were adamant that Dr. Ford be believed were immediately apathetic, if not hostile, to Ms. Reade sure as hell makes it look like they were just playing partisan games with #MeToo and "BELIEVE WOMEN" and didn't actually mean it.

If your standard changes depending on the situation--if you believe those women who accuse men you don't like but disbelieve women who accuse men you do like, for instance--you don't actually have a standard.

EDIT: The same can be said of people who point to the accusations of sexual assault against Donald Trump while ignoring those against Bill Clinton... and vice versa, of course.

I can't believe I have to say this here, but... With the exception of an outnumbered set of wackos with big mouths, the point of #MeToo wasn't "You should always believe all women, no matter what!", it was "You shouldn't automatically assume the woman is lying to protect the powerful man!"

The argument isn't "Always believe one side!", it's "Let's actually investigate all of these claims before we jump to conclusions".  The only ones who insist that one side or the other has to be believed, no matter what, are the far sides of both political spectrums...

Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #228 on: May 01, 2020, 09:36:09 pm »
Again, the only people hanging on to this are the hardcore Bernie fans and the most desperate anchors on Fox News.

So, yeah, it's safe to say that only far ends of the political spectrum really take this seriously.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #229 on: May 01, 2020, 10:09:47 pm »
...an outnumbered set of wackos with big mouths...

The problem is that this set does exist, and because they have big mouths, they get more attention than their numbers would merit. Therefore their actions have an outsized impact on the perception of the #MeToo movement among the general public and, to the extent that their actions reflect negatively on #MeToo, harm #MeToo.

I'm perfectly happy to concede that Ms. Reade is likely full of shit.

EDIT: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tara-reades-allegations-put-establishment-democrats-in-a-bind-believe-women-or-back-the-nominee/

FiveThirtyEight (not exactly Sanders-friendly in its editorial content from what I've seen) making something of a similar point.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/495538-top-house-democrat-tara-reade-allegation-against-biden-needs-to-be

The House Democratic Caucus chair saying that Ms. Reade's claims need to be "investigated seriously".
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 10:34:33 pm by dpareja »
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #230 on: May 03, 2020, 07:16:30 pm »
Yes.  It totally should be investigated seriously.  Just like the allegations against the Orange Piss Pot should be investigated seriously.  But guess which ones will be used by the media to torpedo who's career.

Ironbite-because our media is in it for ratings, not journalism.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #231 on: May 04, 2020, 11:13:03 am »
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-election-trump-biden-amash-1.5552740

A take on whether a Justin Amash candidacy would be a spoiler--and if so, for whom.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Id82

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #232 on: May 04, 2020, 06:52:47 pm »
I guarantee three days before the election after it's beaten into submission during the whole campaign that Biden might have sexually assaulted a girl that the FBI is opening a case to possibly indict Biden for sexual assault allegations which will just push enough fence sitting voters to go for Trump like they did with Hilary.
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Offline Vanto

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #233 on: May 15, 2020, 11:06:19 pm »
A thought occurs to me: if Biden wants to bring back the Obama-era Title IX policies, I'm sure he wouldn't mind being tried under the standards he champions.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #234 on: May 16, 2020, 07:06:06 pm »
Bring us a crime he committed to be tried under then.

Ironbite-Tara Reade ain't it kemosabe.

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #235 on: May 16, 2020, 07:43:19 pm »
So Amash has already dropped. Methinks his plan was to bleed voters from Trump and dropped when he realized there was a chance he was more likely to spoil Biden.

Personally speaking, I'm not entirely convinced that he would have helped Trump win, but I am relieved that we don't have to find out.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #236 on: May 16, 2020, 10:02:39 pm »
Tara Reade gets more and more discredited as the days go on.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #237 on: May 17, 2020, 12:48:00 am »
I suspect that anyone who would have voted for Amash most likely falls into the "wouldn't have voted were he not running" camp anyway.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline DarkPhoenix

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #238 on: May 17, 2020, 01:22:26 pm »
Tara Reade gets more and more discredited as the days go on.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/15/tara-reade-left-trail-of-aggrieved-acquaintances-260771

Quote
‘Manipulative, deceitful, user’: Tara Reade left a trail of aggrieved acquaintances
A number of those who crossed paths with Biden’s accuser say they remember two things: She spoke favorably about her time working for Biden, and she left them feeling duped.

Harriet Wrye did a double take the first time she saw Tara Reade on television lodging sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden.

“Jim, that’s Tara,” the 79-year-old author and psychologist called out to her husband, “but she has a different name.”

Wrye and her husband knew Reade as Tara McCabe, the woman who had rented a yurt on their 12-acre California property and tended to the couple’s horses — and her own — for about 10 months beginning in 2017. They were well-acquainted with their former tenant, who frequently knocked on the door of their home seeking emotional support, asking for financial help or forgiveness for late rent payments, which they granted.

“I would sit down and talk to her and try to be encouraging and supportive,” said Wrye, who noted Reade “had heart and some good qualities.”

“This lack of money was hugely problematic for her, she was always on the ropes in that way.”

Reade had spoken highly of Biden, the former boss who employed her as a staff assistant from late 1992 to August 1993, and never mentioned assault or harassment, Wrye recalls. But what Wrye remembers most is that by the time Reade left their property and moved on, Wrye felt burned.

After her husband suffered a brain injury that forced the couple to sell the property, Wrye said, Reade turned on them.

“She became really difficult,” Wrye said. “She said, ‘You’re going to have to pay me to get me to leave.’”

“She was manipulative,” said Wrye, a self-described feminist and social activist. “She was always saying she was going to get it together, but she couldn’t. And ‘could you help her’?”

...

Reade called Klett in 2019 after first publicly lodging allegations that Biden inappropriately touched her. At the time, Reade did not share details of an assault.

“I felt two things when she contacted me: that she was feeling me out to see if I would represent her pro bono. And there was a sense that she was trying to plant a story with me, so she could later say: ‘I told the story to this attorney I worked with,’” Klett said.

“I support women who have been assaulted. Unfortunately, I cannot support Tara Reade,” she said. “When she first contacted me regarding this issue, she could not provide enough credible information. And since that time the story has evolved in the media. I question her motives.”

Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #239 on: May 18, 2020, 04:57:14 pm »
Amash is likely going to pull more voters from Trump than he is from Biden because, you know, fucking Libertarian Party. So... for once voting third party isn't a completely black and white thing. That said, while I have some level of respect for Amash for being the only Republican (yes, I know he was kicked out of the party) in Congress willing to stand up against Trump, he is NOT a justifiable alternative to voting for Biden. Though I'm not exactly complaining if he leaks votes away from Trump.

For once? It's always been the exact opposite of black and white. Libertarians tend to pull more from republicans, greens tend to pull more from progressive people. But never in any big enough numbers to truly spoil anyone.

Never forget Gore won the popular vote even with Nader's surge. And Bush only won because his brother Jebby boy fucked with the results and 5 partisan hacks on the supreme court decided nothing at all was fucked up or weird about that.