FSTDT Forums
Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Askold on December 21, 2014, 01:48:15 pm
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Since police brutality and trigger happy cops have been on the news and the subject of many topics here lately... Now for something completely different: During the year 2013 Finnish police fired exactly six shots during their duties. (apart from firearms practice of course.)
http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnish_police_fired_a_gun_only_six_times_in_2013/7701005
And some of those were probably fired at wounded animals after they had been hit by a car.
Personally I think it is the culture that makes the difference. Not only the police, but also the criminals are less trigger happy, they know that starting a shootout with the police will not end well for them and crooks are more likely to use violence against each other (rivalries between motorcycle clubs for example) than against the police.
Oh, and the fact that police use of guns is studied and judged very strictly also makes a difference. Every time the police use their weapons (drawing a gun without firing it also counts as use of weapon so it took extra work to dig the info on the shots fired) the prosecutor investigates the incident.
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If it wasn't for all the "Swedish fags" jokes that would follow me, I'd most likely considering moving there.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/02/iceland-armed-police-shoot-man-dead-first-time
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If it wasn't for all the "Swedish fags" jokes that would follow me, I'd most likely considering moving there.
That is location dependant and even so it is exaggerated.
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The supposed danger of police officers in America to gunfire because "AMERICA HAS SO MANY GUNZ" is actually completely incorrect. In 2013, only 105 police officers died in the line of duty (http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2013) out of an estimated 461,000+ sworn officers (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=71) (likely more, as that count is from 2008, but we'll use that number for lack of anything better). This means that 0.022% of all police officers in the United States (again, at worst) were killed in the line of duty through any means. This includes accidents, their own negligence, heart attacks, and even one who died of illness related to 9/11.
For gunfire, 30 officers were shot to death by suspects (another 2 whom I won't count were killed accidentally, one from friendly fire and one from being a moron and shooting himself in the leg taking his guns out of his car). That gives us 0.00650% of all officers shot. They're already at less than a tenth of a percent chance of dying during their service each year, but the chance of a police officer in the United States being killed by another man's gun is so infinitesimally small that they are literally more likely to die driving to the scene of a crime than being shot at the crime scene.
To give a comparison, people have attempted to figure out how many deaths by police occur in the US. It's very difficult, as only about 750 of the 17,000+ agencies in the US actually contribute data. But a current count of just what we know is at least 1100 per year (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count-of-police-homicides/). Even with incomplete data, that's a 3566.6666% increase over how many civilians kill cops. Another entry made by the FBI in 2012 found approximately 400 "justifiable homicides" were committed each year by the less than 1000 agencies that provided data.
It's common for outside observers from other countries to try and treat the United States as essentially a warzone, where the police resort to deadly force so often because the criminals are packing heat and civilians are twitchy and armed. But looking at the actual statistics on who's killing who, you have to ask: exactly who's the biggest threat to your life in America?
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The supposed danger of police officers in America to gunfire because "AMERICA HAS SO MANY GUNZ" is actually completely incorrect. In 2013, only 105 police officers died in the line of duty (http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2013) out of an estimated 461,000+ sworn officers (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=71) (likely more, as that count is from 2008, but we'll use that number for lack of anything better). This means that 0.022% of all police officers in the United States (again, at worst) were killed in the line of duty through any means. This includes accidents, their own negligence, heart attacks, and even one who died of illness related to 9/11.
For gunfire, 30 officers were shot to death by suspects (another 2 whom I won't count were killed accidentally, one from friendly fire and one from being a moron and shooting himself in the leg taking his guns out of his car). That gives us 0.00650% of all officers shot. They're already at less than a tenth of a percent chance of dying during their service each year, but the chance of a police officer in the United States being killed by another man's gun is so infinitesimally small that they are literally more likely to die driving to the scene of a crime than being shot at the crime scene.
To give a comparison, people have attempted to figure out how many deaths by police occur in the US. It's very difficult, as only about 750 of the 17,000+ agencies in the US actually contribute data. But a current count of just what we know is at least 1100 per year (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count-of-police-homicides/). Even with incomplete data, that's a 3566.6666% increase over how many civilians kill cops. Another entry made by the FBI in 2012 found approximately 400 "justifiable homicides" were committed each year by the less than 1000 agencies that provided data.
It's common for outside observers from other countries to try and treat the United States as essentially a warzone, where the police resort to deadly force so often because the criminals are packing heat and civilians are twitchy and armed. But looking at the actual statistics on who's killing who, you have to ask: exactly who's the biggest threat to your life in America?
Well, criminals generally don't deliberately target cops. Just throwing that out here.
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Another thing worth mentioning is that the Finnish police go to a police academy for 3-4 years. Compare that to what the police (and sheriffs and deputies) get for training and you can see how the Finnish police might have a slightly better training.
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The supposed danger of police officers in America to gunfire because "AMERICA HAS SO MANY GUNZ" is actually completely incorrect. In 2013, only 105 police officers died in the line of duty (http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2013) out of an estimated 461,000+ sworn officers (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=71) (likely more, as that count is from 2008, but we'll use that number for lack of anything better). This means that 0.022% of all police officers in the United States (again, at worst) were killed in the line of duty through any means. This includes accidents, their own negligence, heart attacks, and even one who died of illness related to 9/11.
For gunfire, 30 officers were shot to death by suspects (another 2 whom I won't count were killed accidentally, one from friendly fire and one from being a moron and shooting himself in the leg taking his guns out of his car). That gives us 0.00650% of all officers shot. They're already at less than a tenth of a percent chance of dying during their service each year, but the chance of a police officer in the United States being killed by another man's gun is so infinitesimally small that they are literally more likely to die driving to the scene of a crime than being shot at the crime scene.
To give a comparison, people have attempted to figure out how many deaths by police occur in the US. It's very difficult, as only about 750 of the 17,000+ agencies in the US actually contribute data. But a current count of just what we know is at least 1100 per year (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count-of-police-homicides/). Even with incomplete data, that's a 3566.6666% increase over how many civilians kill cops. Another entry made by the FBI in 2012 found approximately 400 "justifiable homicides" were committed each year by the less than 1000 agencies that provided data.
It's common for outside observers from other countries to try and treat the United States as essentially a warzone, where the police resort to deadly force so often because the criminals are packing heat and civilians are twitchy and armed. But looking at the actual statistics on who's killing who, you have to ask: exactly who's the biggest threat to your life in America?
The cops. When you hire brutish thugs, give them access to military-grade weapons, and give them a clear "us vs them" mentality, you're going to have a LOT of "justifiable" homicides; especially when you're in a culture that practically idolizes your profession, is well-known for quickly, viciously blaming the victim, and does great fuck all when it comes down to cops who gun people down.
Yes, not all officers are thugs, but a great number of them are, and they're afforded a great deal of protection and are basically set above regular civilians. Laws don't mean dick if you aren't going to enforce them evenly, which is why the American justice system is likely seen as a complete, utter farce. On one hand, you've got rich civilians who could get out of brutally murdering someone simply because they're famous and can buy the best lawyers, and on the other, you've got a cadre of people in a caste just below the military, with half the training and discipline of said actual soldiers, with almost every conventional weapon outside god damned stealth bombers at their disposal, who can and will get away with basically executing anyone that so much as looks at 'em funny, double points if they're a scary minority.
Maybe, if we adopted a more Swedish attitude, people like Michael Brown would still be alive, or if nothing else, his murderer would actually be behind bars with the rest of the violent psychopaths. As it stands, though, American "justice" is a fucking joke.
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Another thing worth mentioning is that the Finnish police go to a police academy for 3-4 years. Compare that to what the police (and sheriffs and deputies) get for training and you can see how the Finnish police might have a slightly better training.
Within this, there lies a problem. Police academies are generally the business of the states hosting the department and any attempts to change that brings aging Dixiecrats out of the woodwork.
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In fact, assuming that the number of police-caused deaths scales proportionately to the other 16,000+ agencies in the United States (which would be hard to quantify, as even having a single officer of a village makes this officially count as an "agency"), it's possible that the number of civilians killed by police is higher than the country's own homicide rate.
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(http://i.imgur.com/jMyhTb0.jpg)
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In fact, assuming that the number of police-caused deaths scales proportionately to the other 16,000+ agencies in the United States (which would be hard to quantify, as even having a single officer of a village makes this officially count as an "agency"), it's possible that the number of civilians killed by police is higher than the country's own homicide rate.
It's hard to tell due to the fact police agencies tend to be uncooperative in reporting every death caused by cops and the circumstances behind every death.
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In my opinion, 90% of the problem is a lack of accountability. If you stuff up badly, no mercy. No cops should ever investigate cops.
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In my opinion, 90% of the problem is a lack of accountability. If you stuff up badly, no mercy. No cops should ever investigate cops.
"We investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong."
I wouldn't say 90%, it's closer to 62%.
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Another issue is that prosecutors depend on police to act as investigators in crimes. If prosecutors start going after the police, the police could well become rather less cooperative.
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Another issue is that prosecutors depend on police to act as investigators in crimes. If prosecutors start going after the police, the police could well become rather less cooperative.
Which is why you make a simple clear cut law that says every incident is investigated by a completely separate entity that has no ties to the local community or police.
The cops can hate them all they want, a special investigator has no reason to give a fuck.
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Another issue is that prosecutors depend on police to act as investigators in crimes. If prosecutors start going after the police, the police could well become rather less cooperative.
Which is why you make a simple clear cut law that says every incident is investigated by a completely separate entity that has no ties to the local community or police.
The cops can hate them all they want, a special investigator has no reason to give a fuck.
Okay then, about these special investigators, quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Another issue is that prosecutors depend on police to act as investigators in crimes. If prosecutors start going after the police, the police could well become rather less cooperative.
Which is why you make a simple clear cut law that says every incident is investigated by a completely separate entity that has no ties to the local community or police.
The cops can hate them all they want, a special investigator has no reason to give a fuck.
Okay then, about these special investigators, quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
It's a democracy, ultimately that responsibility falls on our collective shoulders. The best thing to do is make sure there is lots of light on the subject so there is less room for darkness to hide and set the rules up so they can't simply act with impunity.
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In my opinion, 90% of the problem is a lack of accountability. If you stuff up badly, no mercy. No cops should ever investigate cops.
"We investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong."
I wouldn't say 90%, it's closer to 62%.
Another issue is that prosecutors depend on police to act as investigators in crimes. If prosecutors start going after the police, the police could well become rather less cooperative.
Erm, isn't this precisely the reason why Internal Affairs departments or whatever they're called elsewhere are a thing?