Author Topic: Good Things People Say on the Internet  (Read 111278 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #150 on: October 04, 2015, 08:19:31 pm »
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The politicalisation of the Charlie Hebdo massacre is disgusting. Honestly the most hideous thing I've seen in years. There is no "justification" there are no "two sides" to the story. There is only a spree murder.

Yet I keep seeing people frame it as deserved. Comments along the lines of "I'm not saying they deserved to die. I'm just saying the world is a better place with them dead.". Long opinion pieces about how the cartoon was racist and right wing and this and so on and on. No. You write "I fully condemn the actions of the murderers and my thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones" and then you put a full stop and then you stop writing.You do not get to put a "but..." at the end. You do not get to make this political as if a there is a direct and logical path of cause and effect from drawing to murder.

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #151 on: October 05, 2015, 03:23:50 am »
Mostly apt, but there's not really anything wrong per se with talking about how Charlie Hebdo is a shitrag. You can condemn the actions of the killers and send your thoughts to those who have lost loves ones and criticize Charlie Hebdo simultaneously, after all.

Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #152 on: October 05, 2015, 07:14:42 am »
And what were they supposed to have done that qualifies as a "shitrag"?

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #153 on: October 05, 2015, 07:31:03 am »
...all that Islamophobic shit that incited the killers in the first place?

Art Vandelay

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #154 on: October 05, 2015, 07:52:28 am »
They shit on all religions, as I recall (and rightly so, might I add). Islam deserves no special treatment, despite what some may claim.

Offline guizonde

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #155 on: October 05, 2015, 08:46:31 am »
And what were they supposed to have done that qualifies as a "shitrag"?

basically, to be politically incorrect. they're old-school anarchists. they are not racist, but they use and exaggerate racist rhetoric to dirty the racist politicians' pr squads. they are irreverent to the point of frank insult. they are the bad kind of satire (throw shit everywhere and laugh about it). but as far as i'm concerned, even if i don't read them, they have their place. i prefer the canard enchainé, who targets fewer but with more intensity. conservation of satire, if you will.

the only critique i can make of charlie hebdo is that it's not my cup of tea.

oh, and for anyone who cares to cite the "but they drew a minister as a monkey! racists!" yeah, that's because one of the front national's (extreme right wing party) goons called christianne taubira a monkey (racist insult). they just highlighted it to show how stupid the one responsible was.

they're not funny, they're the journalistic equivalent of 4chan, humor-wise. they use shock tactics and dead baby comedy. but they're not a shitrag.

even then, i dare you to read what they say about the catholic church. trust me, in one article they basically said we should abandon the term "cardinal" and replace it with "pedophile". does that make them christophobic or generally antireligious?

charlie hebdo, unlike other satirical french journals is not meant to be taken at face value. when the canard says "hollande is doing a shit job and here is a cartoon of him eating a sandwich dripping mayonnaise on a peace treaty", it means exactly what it means. when charlie hebdo does a shocking cartoon, it's meant to shock and make you think. thus the gratuitous nudity, penises, and puke and shit.

if they're islamophobic, then we're all hypocrites. because they don't give a fuck. that's their mantra. they're dickheads by all accounts. but they're not racist or islamophobic. and that's the toughest thing i can do on this forum is to try and convince you guys of that. charlie hebdo is indiscriminate, they're not racially or politically or religiously motivated. they trash everyone equally. in the 90's and 00's they ran 23 covers about the catholic church and the pedophile scandals including showing the pope benedict xvi sodomizing a choir boy while wearing nazi regalia. in interviews, after being asked if they did this as an anticatholic act, they answered "because it was funny. next week it might be about jews, or about bhuddists, or about muslims. but there is one thing we'll keep on doing, and that is to make fun of people".

just because i tell a joke about jews does that make me antisemitic? no, it means i have a politically incorrect sense of humor. same deal. i'm sure you all laugh at some grim things (the bad jokes thread, for example, is rife with horrible jokes including genocide). they just make money off it.

... i don't like the paper and i won't call them heroes of free speech (being dickheads), but i won't abide for victim blaming either. and even then, you basically said they deserved it. nobody deserves to get shot for a sick sense of humor.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #156 on: October 05, 2015, 09:12:10 am »
The Je Suis Charlie thing and explanations (for non-French readers) about Charlie Hebdo's style of rank, irreverent humor was all over the net and media for weeks. I guess some people never could not get past being appalled by seeing the cartoons out of their intended context, and never read that Parody of what racists and bad pols and powerful pigs say was the point of CH humor.
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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #157 on: October 05, 2015, 09:28:21 am »
... i don't like the paper and i won't call them heroes of free speech (being dickheads), but i won't abide for victim blaming either. and even then, you basically said they deserved it. nobody deserves to get shot for a sick sense of humor.

...where exactly did I say that? All I said was that Charlie Hebdo's Islamophobia was the reason the attack happened. Nowhere did I say that they deserved getting shot. You really need to stop putting words in people's mouths, my dude, it's a bad habit.

Like I said: you can condemn the attackers and express negative sentiment about Charlie Hebdo at the same time. These are not somehow mutually exclusive.

(And while the posters above express some fine points, I personally believe that "I'm not a bigot, I hate everyone equally"-rhetoric is bullshit. If you steal a hundred dollars from a poor guy and a millionaire, you're not stealing equally.)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 09:34:10 am by Even Then »

Offline guizonde

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #158 on: October 05, 2015, 11:06:14 am »
...all that Islamophobic shit that incited the killers in the first place?

not "deserving", rather "opposite and equal reaction", my apologies.

this sentence could be interpreted as "they got what was coming to them". i'm not putting words in people's mouths. words are double-edged, especially around here where one badly-said sentence sparks a flame-war.

i know you can do both, hell, i've called them dickheads a few times, among other choice insults all the while raging about this tragedy (and its politization).

re: bigotry and theft. it's not the same parallel and you know it. the paper makes its money off of mocking everything. from monsanto to vegans, from capitalists from communists. they're indiscriminate because their sole point of existence is to piss people off. however, there's a difference between slander (moral prejudice) and theft or usury (physical prejudice). both are harmful in their own way but don't equate one with the other. honestly, i'd rather be tarred and feathered than losing my cash. and if we want to be pedantic, they're more of an "eat the rich mentality" so will actually target the rich over the poor (while making jokes about welfare babies in freezers, but hey, misanthropists.)
as i mentionned before, humor is cultural, and charlie hebdo keeps alive a french tradition of being the worst assholes you can imagine while technically doing nothing wrong. as in, they're not outright libelling, lying, or infringing free speech. what they say is a bunch of crap most of the time, but they have the right to do it. also, once again, nobody deserves to be shot for having an opinion i don't like. those are totalitarian tactics and cannot be tolerated in a democracy. if the situation was reversed and it had been a bigoted newspaper that was shot up i'd be saying the same. i don't like what "la croix" (a conservative paper) writes but i don't want them silenced either.

so long as it stays in the domain of satire, everything should be said. hell, pierre desproges said it better than me "you can laugh about everything, but not with everyone".
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Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #159 on: October 05, 2015, 01:51:15 pm »
...all that Islamophobic shit that incited the killers in the first place?


Oh, you mean those HARMLESS CARTOONS? Maybe if these Muslims are so upset about HARMLESS CARTOONS, no matter how harsh these FUCKING CARTOONS are, that they are driven to murder, they instead could:

A) Get the fuck over it
B) Go cry somewhere else

Blasphemy is a victimless crime, and Islam does not deserve to be treated any lighter than all the other mythical nonsense out there.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #160 on: October 05, 2015, 02:48:56 pm »
Can you really call a magazine Islamophobic for criticizing, even vulgarly and virulently, all religions, including Islam?
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Offline guizonde

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #161 on: October 05, 2015, 03:20:30 pm »
Can you really call a magazine Islamophobic for criticizing, even vulgarly and virulently, all religions, including Islam?

the words you're looking for are either "antireligious", "irreverent", or "equal-opportunity assholes", depending on your viewpoint. "antisemitic", "christophobic", and "islamophobic" are not appropriate.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #162 on: October 05, 2015, 04:23:03 pm »
Can you really call a magazine Islamophobic for criticizing, even vulgarly and virulently, all religions, including Islam?

...yes?

Or at least it does not disqualify them from being Islamophobic. Islamophobia is not about hating Islam more than anything else, it's about hating Islam for stupid reasons.

If today I start talking about how black people are all scum who steal and rape, and tomorrow I start talking about how Hispanics are all lazy and dirty, and the next day I talk about how white people are all colonial oppressors, and the next day I talk about Native Americans being alcoholics...

I'm not magically not racist. I'm just racist against a lot of people. Including myself, but not the point.

Similarly, saying that all Muslims are terrorists and that all Catholics are paedophiles and that all Asatruar are Neo-Nazis doesn't make me not prejudiced. It makes me prejudiced against multiple groups (not saying this is what Charlie Hebdo did, just putting as an example).

I don't know enough about Charlie Hebdo to say if they're Islamophobic, but I don't think "I'm prejudiced against everyone" is a valid defence.
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Offline guizonde

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #163 on: October 05, 2015, 05:41:30 pm »
I don't know enough about Charlie Hebdo to say if they're Islamophobic, but I don't think "I'm prejudiced against everyone" is a valid defence.

it's their defense, and they've stuck by it since the paper's inception. besides, they don't purposely call out radical islam because it's islam. but because it's radical. faith is secondary. combine that with a trollface and the attention span of a goldfish, and you disregard them pretty quickly. until they get shot up. then it's all about "free speech" and "heroes" and politicking. they've gone on record to say that this tragedy hit them hard (france lost some of their most talented cartoonists that day), but it also revived the paper instead of killing it. they were down to less than 50,000 subscribers, barely enough to keep them afloat. following january 11, the number tripled, making it overnight one of the top-selling papers. the next edition, the "all is forgiven" cartoon, sold out. of a run of 5 million. they had to do a reprint. that never happened before. they're thankful for the hipocrisy of the french (as in "we don't care. oh, look victims let's help them.") but they won't change their m.o. all the same. they like being assholes and have taken it upon themselves to be the quintessential assholes, no, the flagship assholes. representing all that is assholish in satirical journalism. almost like bigotry doesn't factor in. they'll kick the dog for the lulz because nobody else will. and somebody has to kick the dog.

seriously, these guys are trolls, edgelords and anti-clerical misanthropists. but they're not racist or targetting religions because of specifics. at least, not to my definition of the term. then again, language barriers may be at play. islamophobia in french is explicitely hating on islam because it's islam (and by extension, hating arabs and maghribi). saying "the quran is stupid" is not islamophobic just as saying "the torah is stupid" is not anti-semitic. it's anti-religious. saying "imams should go back to fucking goats" is islamophobic, however.

i've got a bad feeling i'm unclear on the distinction. the stomach flu doesn't help, but i want to try to clear this up.
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Offline TheL

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Re: Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #164 on: October 06, 2015, 04:26:20 pm »
...all that Islamophobic shit that incited the killers in the first place?


Oh, you mean those HARMLESS CARTOONS? Maybe if these Muslims are so upset about HARMLESS CARTOONS, no matter how harsh these FUCKING CARTOONS are, that they are driven to murder, they instead could:

A) Get the fuck over it
B) Go cry somewhere else

Blasphemy is a victimless crime, and Islam does not deserve to be treated any lighter than all the other mythical nonsense out there.

OK, so what about their antisemitic cartoons?  (Remember, I married a Jew.  Antisemitism is a hot-button issue.)
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