FSTDT Forums
Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: ironbite on February 21, 2012, 06:20:56 pm
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Yet everyone with an R next to his name is (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/franklin-graham-morning-joe-obama-christian_n_1290866.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003) according to the Rev. Franklin Graham. And in case you didn't know who that is, he's the son of Televangelist Billy Graham.
The "Morning Joe" roundtable had a heated confrontation with Rev. Franklin Graham, the son of televangelist Billy Graham, for questioning whether President Obama is a Christian on Tuesday's show.
Graham has come under fire for controversial statements about Obama's faith before. On Monday, he was responding to a recent comment by Rick Santorum that initially appeared to criticize the President's religious beliefs. Graham refused to definitively say that President Obama is a Christian.
When asked if he believed that he was, Graham said that people would "need to ask President Obama" to get an answer. "He has said he's a Christian, so I just have to assume that he is," Graham said.
He defined a Christian as someone who puts "faith and trust in Jesus Christ," and contrasted that with what he claimed was Obama's arrival at Christianity. He said that Obama joined a church after the Chicago neighborhood where he was a community organizer asked him to.
When co-host Willie Geist pressed him to say whether he believed Obama was a Christian, Graham maintained that he "cannot answer that question for anybody."
However, his answer on Rick Santorum's Christianity was a resounding yes. "His values are so clear on moral issues," he said. "No question, I believe he is a man of faith."
So Obama isn't a Christian but Santorum and Gingrich are?
Ironbite-niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.
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Graham has always had a very specific and narrow definition of what being a "Christian" means, like all of the evangelical bigwigs. To him, being a "Christian" has very little to do with belief or faith or theology, and a lot to do with what you say and do and the causes you promote. To Graham, a "Christian" is anti-abortion, anti-gay, pro-capitalist, anti-socialist, anti-intellectual, anti-liberal, pro-small government, anti-regulation, pro-military, anti-taxes, and pro-self reliance.
It is interesting to note a few facts from the teachings of Jesus.
Anti-abortion? Jesus himself does not mention abortion even once in his ministry, and the Old Testament law very specifically places less value on an unborn fetus than it does a child.
Anti-gay? Again, Jesus never mentions the subject, and you know that a single man traveling in the ancient Roman empire with a dozen other single men had the issue raised to them...
Pro-capitalist? Jesus rejected wealth, material possessions, and all forms of material acquisition.
Anti-socialist? Jesus was a near textbook example of socialism in action.
Anti-intellectual? Jesus' entire method of teaching was to systematically challenge the intellect and minds of his listeners. He rarely answered questions, but instead facilitated people to discover the answers for themselves. he was textbook Socratic method, which is a frighteningly difficult teaching technique.
Anti-liberal? Jesus was a shockingly progressive liberal.
Pro-small government? Anti-regulation? Jesus refused to involve himself with the affairs of government.
Pro-military? Jesus categorically rejected violence in all forms, including military action.
Anti-taxes? "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." Jesus quite specifically told his followers to pay their taxes, since they were not supposed to be focused on material gain anyway.
Pro-self reliance? Jesus was very explicit when he told people that we are all interconnected and none of us can function without others. Am I my brother's keeper? Jesus' answer is a most emphatic "yes."
In a nutshell, the evangelical movement in America has changed the game in defining a "Christian." All you have to do is SAY you are a Christian and support dozens of causes and agendas that Jesus either remained entirely silent on or was very explicitly against. The modern evangelical movement bows to Jesus while entirely ignoring almost everything he taught and said.
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If hes a Christian, then how come hes a athiest Muslim from Kenya and Indonesia?
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If hes a Christian, then how come hes a athiest Muslim from Kenya and Indonesia?
Because Satan.
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Dumber than his old man.
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Some people think Obama is really an atheist but can't say so because it would lose him too many votes. That's a nice idea, but I doubt he is.
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Frankin Graham is a batshit crazy loon, the sad thing is that he makes his father look good.
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Well, of course he's not a Christian, his name is Barack HUSSEIN Obama.
It's been so long since I've seen that. I feel all nostalgic & shit.
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Well, of course he's not a Christian, his name is Barack HUSSEIN Obama.
It's been so long since I've seen that. I feel all nostalgic & shit.
And also because a brown-skinned person with a funny name can't possibly be one of us True Americans.
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Sandman summed it up near perfectly and reminded me of this...
(http://montaraventures.com/blog/wp-content/2011/02/real-jesus-vs-republican-jesus-590x823.jpg)
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Fundies' idea of a "True Christian" is Duke Nukem waving a Bible at his Vanderbilt-sized home (staffed by Hispanics & Blacks being paid in peanuts).
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If paid at all.
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If paid at all.
Indeed.
Maybe in LITERAL peanuts....a teeny bag of peanuts, once a week.
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Not seriously arguing here, sandman, but pointing out that some of your arguments are a bit weak.
Pro-capitalist? Jesus rejected wealth, material possessions, and all forms of material acquisition.[/qupte]Actually I am arguing this. 'Love thy neighbour' implies responsible handling and sharing of wealth, but an outright rejection? That's a new one to me.
Anti-taxes? "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." Jesus quite specifically told his followers to pay their taxes, since they were not supposed to be focused on material gain anyway.
And what is actually Caesar's? That's famously left unspecified.
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I assume all irishmen are christian, be they catholic or the damned english.
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Actually, you're right, Yla. Most people outside church circles don't know this, but there is a very specific interpretation of Jesus' words that is common among the faithful. To them, Jesus is making a double-meaning statement. When he says "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's," supposedly he is saying exactly what he means while phrasing it in a manner for which the Roman Centurions listening will not arrest him.
To a True Believer, what is "Caesar's?" (ie the government's?) Nothing. And what is "God's?" Everything. they interpret it to be extremely subversive on the subject of taxes. It's this interpretation that led to the whole "churches-aren't-taxed" thing in the first place.
(Edit to remove that embarrassing dangling participle....)
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The young Turks said it all so well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVWvtbJ1Oig
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Of course, the real mystery is not whether or not Obama is a Christian, but rather why it would make any fucking difference.
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Because of that tiny footnote in the Constitution that says the founders were just joshing people when they wrote that there is no religious test for holding office. It's totally there in invisible ink. I heard it on Coast to Coast AM, so it must be true.
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Actually, you're right, Yla. Most people outside church circles don't know this, but there is a very specific interpretation of Jesus' words that is common among the faithful. To them, Jesus is making a double-meaning statement. When he says "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's," supposedly he is saying exactly what he means while phrasing it in a manner for which the Roman Centurions listening will not arrest him.
To a True Believer, what is "Caesar's?" (ie the government's?) Nothing. And what is "God's?" Everything. they interpret it to be extremely subversive on the subject of taxes. It's this interpretation that led to the whole "churches-aren't-taxed" thing in the first place.
(Edit to remove that embarrassing dangling participle....)
I'd never heard that interpretation until I encountered fundies, and I've been attending church all my life.
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Actually, you're right, Yla. Most people outside church circles don't know this, but there is a very specific interpretation of Jesus' words that is common among the faithful. To them, Jesus is making a double-meaning statement. When he says "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's," supposedly he is saying exactly what he means while phrasing it in a manner for which the Roman Centurions listening will not arrest him.
To a True Believer, what is "Caesar's?" (ie the government's?) Nothing. And what is "God's?" Everything. they interpret it to be extremely subversive on the subject of taxes. It's this interpretation that led to the whole "churches-aren't-taxed" thing in the first place.
It can't be all that common, because I've spent over 2 decades in fundie circles, both Catholic and Protestant, and I have never heard that explanation before in my life. Everyone whom I've ever heard discuss that passage always says that it means to do your duties as a citizen (including the paying of taxes), while also obeying God.
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That's because most religious groups wish to work within the framework of an existing government, even if they want to influence the laws to suit their own needs. You see it mostly in the libertarian Christians, the ones who feel they shouldn't have to pay taxes.