Russia is at it again

[Barbarella]

I just want to know, why is the Russian government so into this big homophobic pogrom thing, all of the sudden? Something must have triggered Putin to wake up one day & go "I think I'll start a big anti-homosexual pogrom, today". Now, I know that homophobia's big in Russia but I still wonder what was the catalyst?

I'm half convinced that a gay guy hit on Putin one day, and that Putin is in the closet.  Staunch homophobes sure seem to be there a lot--look at Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, etc;  I kept waiting for pictures of Rick Santorum and Bryan Fisher coming out of a Minneapolis airport bathroom to surface during the election last year.

I figured that, too. V-Poo (as I call him) is a major closet case. Look at him! Here's a guy who plays-up the whole macho image...despite looking like a hybrid of Frank Gorshin & Nobby The House Elf. He got a boner for hating others like him, so he gets on the homophobic pogrom bandwagon big-time.

You know, I'm pretty sure playing up stereotypes of gay men being "effeminate" is also homophobic.

I didn't mean to do that. I was more talking about how dorky Putin looks and his male insecurity but it came out all wrong. I'll remove part of the message. I'm sorry.

Heck, I like effeminate guys. Gender roles are stupid.

[Canadian Mojo]

That's illogical and you know it. Their actions are extremely similar to the Nazis, and therefore can be compared to the Nazis. Unless you completely failed all of school, you know that two things don't need to be identical to be compared. You know I wasn't being literal, and you complained in the first place that even comparing them to the Nazis would be wrong, which it isn't. The are highly similar to the Nazis, and their ideology is the same as the Nazis was at the start, just with "Germans" replaced with "Jews" and "Jews" replaced with "Palestinians". If a southern politician called for slavery, you wouldn't object to them being called a Confederate asshole. But, they're not literally a member of the Confederate States of America.

I already explained this earlier, but since it didn't sink in the first time...

What you call "early stage Nazis" is nothing more than generic persecution. The Nazis were neither the first nor the most prolific practitioners of this sort of thing. They're no more "early stage Nazis" than they are "Romans" or "Mongolians" or "Chinese", or pretty much every single group in history that ever at some point had power over another. If they were doing things that Nazi-run Germany specifically did to eliminate those they don't like (the usual death camps, forced experimentation, all that good stuff), then it would be a valid comparison. If not, however, it serves no purpose other than an extremely tired and overused appeal to emotion.

You have got to admit that they've got the ghetto and disproportionate retribution on the civilian population thing down to a T.

Pretty big on aggressive expansion under the guise "reclaiming" of the homeland, have a very militaristic society, and are really into that racial purity nonsense as well.

[PosthumanHeresy]

That's illogical and you know it. Their actions are extremely similar to the Nazis, and therefore can be compared to the Nazis. Unless you completely failed all of school, you know that two things don't need to be identical to be compared. You know I wasn't being literal, and you complained in the first place that even comparing them to the Nazis would be wrong, which it isn't. The are highly similar to the Nazis, and their ideology is the same as the Nazis was at the start, just with "Germans" replaced with "Jews" and "Jews" replaced with "Palestinians". If a southern politician called for slavery, you wouldn't object to them being called a Confederate asshole. But, they're not literally a member of the Confederate States of America.

I already explained this earlier, but since it didn't sink in the first time...

What you call "early stage Nazis" is nothing more than generic persecution. The Nazis were neither the first nor the most prolific practitioners of this sort of thing. They're no more "early stage Nazis" than they are "Romans" or "Mongolians" or "Chinese", or pretty much every single group in history that ever at some point had power over another. If they were doing things that Nazi-run Germany specifically did to eliminate those they don't like (the usual death camps, forced experimentation, all that good stuff), then it would be a valid comparison. If not, however, it serves no purpose other than an extremely tired and overused appeal to emotion.

You have got to admit that they've got the ghetto and disproportionate retribution on the civilian population thing down to a T.

Pretty big on aggressive expansion under the guise "reclaiming" of the homeland, have a very militaristic society, and are really into that racial purity nonsense as well.

Might as well give it up. They could start wearing swastikas and goose-stepping and people would call Godwin's law if you called them Nazis. Godwin's law is fucking retarded.

[lord gibbon]

As with many other things, it started out as a good idea, but now I too often see it as an excuse. No Russia is not literally becoming a supporter of the German National Socialist Party, but it is certainly becoming similar in its acts and methods.

[PosthumanHeresy]

As with many other things, it started out as a good idea, but now I too often see it as an excuse. No Russia is not literally becoming a supporter of the German National Socialist Party, but it is certainly becoming similar in its acts and methods.

Exactly. Godwin's Law was never intended to be used for every Nazi comparison. It was intended to be used when someone got into an argument online and called their opponent a Nazi, not when a nation is acting like Nazis.

[Shane for Wax]

For me I like to make things distinct, otherwise you water down the impact of the original thing you are comparing something to. Which, has honestly already happened by calling things Hitler and the Holocaust.

[lord gibbon]

If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.

[guizonde]

If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.

finally someone making sense in this discussion. by the way, as a historian, you're spot on, even if i'd say it's more twenty's germany than full-fledged thirties at this point. the bolded part is an adage, not a cliché, and i really wish more politicians kept it to heart in these times.

another adage (translated from french) is "victims make the best executionners" (les victimes sont les meilleurs bourreaux) which  is why i'm wary of israel, since their methods are pretty vile, and you can see where they got the inspiration.

i'd support an eye-opening campaign going something like this: world situation A, parallel to historic situation A, world situation B, parallel to situation B, caption: "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it. knowledge is power. use it well"

[PosthumanHeresy]

If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.

That's what I was trying to say. They're not acting like Germany at the end, but the early part of Nazi Germany.

[Barbarella]

If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.

finally someone making sense in this discussion. by the way, as a historian, you're spot on, even if i'd say it's more twenty's germany than full-fledged thirties at this point. the bolded part is an adage, not a cliché, and i really wish more politicians kept it to heart in these times.

another adage (translated from french) is "victims make the best executionners" (les victimes sont les meilleurs bourreaux) which  is why i'm wary of israel, since their methods are pretty vile, and you can see where they got the inspiration.

i'd support an eye-opening campaign going something like this: world situation A, parallel to historic situation A, world situation B, parallel to situation B, caption: "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it. knowledge is power. use it well"

I like your new saying. A good companion to the one I wrote (which PosthumanHeresy has as a signature). I think a new Book of Proverbs is in order. I have another saying. Instead of saying "No good deed goes unpunished" (which sounds super-cynical & seems to discourage being a 'good Samaritan/random acts of kindness', thereby making humanity worse), one should say, "Good deeds are noble but be careful who you do good deeds for, lest it comes back to haunt you".

[RavynousHunter]

If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.

finally someone making sense in this discussion. by the way, as a historian, you're spot on, even if i'd say it's more twenty's germany than full-fledged thirties at this point. the bolded part is an adage, not a cliché, and i really wish more politicians kept it to heart in these times.

another adage (translated from french) is "victims make the best executionners" (les victimes sont les meilleurs bourreaux) which  is why i'm wary of israel, since their methods are pretty vile, and you can see where they got the inspiration.

i'd support an eye-opening campaign going something like this: world situation A, parallel to historic situation A, world situation B, parallel to situation B, caption: "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it. knowledge is power. use it well"

I like your new saying. A good companion to the one I wrote (which PosthumanHeresy has as a signature). I think a new Book of Proverbs is in order. I have another saying. Instead of saying "No good deed goes unpunished" (which sounds super-cynical & seems to discourage being a 'good Samaritan/random acts of kindness', thereby making humanity worse), one should say, "Good deeds are noble but be careful who you do good deeds for, lest it comes back to haunt you".

"Bite the hand that feeds you if its feeding you poison."

[Barbarella]

If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.

finally someone making sense in this discussion. by the way, as a historian, you're spot on, even if i'd say it's more twenty's germany than full-fledged thirties at this point. the bolded part is an adage, not a cliché, and i really wish more politicians kept it to heart in these times.

another adage (translated from french) is "victims make the best executionners" (les victimes sont les meilleurs bourreaux) which  is why i'm wary of israel, since their methods are pretty vile, and you can see where they got the inspiration.

i'd support an eye-opening campaign going something like this: world situation A, parallel to historic situation A, world situation B, parallel to situation B, caption: "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it. knowledge is power. use it well"

I like your new saying. A good companion to the one I wrote (which PosthumanHeresy has as a signature). I think a new Book of Proverbs is in order. I have another saying. Instead of saying "No good deed goes unpunished" (which sounds super-cynical & seems to discourage being a 'good Samaritan/random acts of kindness', thereby making humanity worse), one should say, "Good deeds are noble but be careful who you do good deeds for, lest it comes back to haunt you".

"Bite the hand that feeds you if its feeding you poison."

Hey, great one! This is fun! I think we should create a new thread where we all come up with new moral saying/proverb thingies! After a while, they'll all be compiled in one book or website or something.

[PosthumanHeresy]

Sounds awesome to me.

[Lithp]

You guys just described fascism. And fascism doesn't necessarily turn genocidal. I see your point, but Art's point is also valid: Godwinning here is a needless emotional appeal, there are better analogies.

Also, Godwin's Law doesn't say that you can't compare to the Nazis, it just says that it's the most likely comparison. You can extrapolate from that that it's probably usually hyperbolic.

[PosthumanHeresy]

You guys just described fascism. And fascism doesn't necessarily turn genocidal. I see your point, but Art's point is also valid: Godwinning here is a needless emotional appeal, there are better analogies.

Also, Godwin's Law doesn't say that you can't compare to the Nazis, it just says that it's the most likely comparison. You can extrapolate from that that it's probably usually hyperbolic.

That is true, but I would like to point out, the two biggest fascist nations that weren't Germany, which were Russia and China, killed far more people than Germany, each. China killed around 30 million in a few years. A while back, I did the math, and it was multiple 9/11s, daily, for years. Soviet Russia is infamous for the death toll. Fascism coupled with homophobia and other discriminatory mindsets leads to genocide.