Author Topic: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul  (Read 14161 times)

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Offline The Illusive Man

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2014, 02:48:39 am »
I will take that as a tacit admission that you do not know of anyone that has in fact done so, which is at least some evidence right there.
Harm can be used to mean anything that negatively affects a person to any extent. If you call someone fat, or tell them you believe their loved ones are not in heaven, or tell them you pretended to be their friend to win a bet and you secretly never liked thgem, it can cause emotional distress, which is a form of harm. Unless you want to argue that all of the above should not be considered free speech, you cannot use "harm" as the separator between free speech and hate speech without some further specification as to what kind and degree of harm.
Look at all those words and false equivalence. You willfully ignore two main qualifiers, intent and inherent characteristic. Hate speech is not accidental, it is intentionally crafted to target a group of people based upon an inherent characteristic. How quickly Group Libel and its history has been forgotten.

Let’s get to the false equivalence. Tell me how are: BMI, religious beliefs and interpersonal issues equivocal to sexuality?



And while I attempt to distract from the AFA who I never defended, you attempt to distract from Eich's actual views by grouping him with the AFA.
Both willfully undertook finical and political action in support of the same cause as part of the same political initiative.  Discrimination against a group of people by their common, inherent characteristic (sexuality in this case). Like it or not the AFA benefits from his contribution.



The way people responded to his anti-gay views is an inherent part of him becoming a PR liability. Unless Mozilla actually discriminated against LGBT people as a result of his position as CEO, then the only problem is that people don't like his views (with good reason) and think he should be fired over them (not with good reason). Show me an example of that, and I'll freely admit I was misinformed and shut up.
Board members such as John Lilly GTFO and did not call for his resignation afterward because they had the foresight to realize this was going to be a disaster. Ms. Baker and Mr. Hoffman tried to keep him in Mozilla too.
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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2014, 05:06:50 am »
Look at all those words and false equivalence.

I've been watching the back and forth, and it's obvious you're moving the goalposts, TIM.  Knock it the fuck off.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2014, 01:52:37 pm »
This argument intrigues me.  That is all I have to say on the matter.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2014, 03:50:25 pm »
I will take that as a tacit admission that you do not know of anyone that has in fact done so, which is at least some evidence right there.
Harm can be used to mean anything that negatively affects a person to any extent. If you call someone fat, or tell them you believe their loved ones are not in heaven, or tell them you pretended to be their friend to win a bet and you secretly never liked thgem, it can cause emotional distress, which is a form of harm. Unless you want to argue that all of the above should not be considered free speech, you cannot use "harm" as the separator between free speech and hate speech without some further specification as to what kind and degree of harm.
Look at all those words and false equivalence. You willfully ignore two main qualifiers, intent and inherent characteristic. Hate speech is not accidental, it is intentionally crafted to target a group of people based upon an inherent characteristic. How quickly Group Libel and its history has been forgotten.

Let’s get to the false equivalence. Tell me how are: BMI, religious beliefs and interpersonal issues equivocal to sexuality?

I'm pretty sure we were having an argument about whether or not harm can be used to separate free speech from hate speech. If you want to go and admit that you cannot and use another definition, I'm fine with that, but don't try to make it like I'm arguing something I'm not.

I did not say Eich's speech wasn't hate speech because it was analogous to any of the examples above. I said that since speech that is clearly free falls under the vague category of harm, you can't use that to claim hate speech. As far as I can tell, you've only used the expression "inherent characteristic" once before, and it's not in the section I was responding to, so of course my quote above doesn't address it.

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And while I attempt to distract from the AFA who I never defended, you attempt to distract from Eich's actual views by grouping him with the AFA.
Both willfully undertook finical and political action in support of the same cause as part of the same political initiative.  Discrimination against a group of people by their common, inherent characteristic (sexuality in this case). Like it or not the AFA benefits from his contribution.

Your argument continues to be "Eich had one point of agreement with some awful people, therefore we should treat him as equally awful in everything related to that point of agreement". My response continues to be that the AFA's views matter when we're discussing the AFA, and Eich's when we are discussing Eich.

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The way people responded to his anti-gay views is an inherent part of him becoming a PR liability. Unless Mozilla actually discriminated against LGBT people as a result of his position as CEO, then the only problem is that people don't like his views (with good reason) and think he should be fired over them (not with good reason). Show me an example of that, and I'll freely admit I was misinformed and shut up.
Board members such as John Lilly GTFO and did not call for his resignation afterward because they had the foresight to realize this was going to be a disaster. Ms. Baker and Mr. Hoffman tried to keep him in Mozilla too.

Suspiciously not an example of Mozilla discriminating against LGBT people as a result of Eich being CEO. I'm not sure why you're putting it up as a response to the quoted part.
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Offline The Illusive Man

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2014, 11:12:24 pm »
I did not say Eich's speech wasn't hate speech because it was analogous to any of the examples above. I said that since speech that is clearly free falls under the vague category of harm, you can't use that to claim hate speech. As far as I can tell, you've only used the expression "inherent characteristic" once before, and it's not in the section I was responding to, so of course my quote above doesn't address it.
It would seem you do not know what an inherent characteristic is. Two quick examples: sexuality and race. These are characteristics that any given person inherits upon existence. Such are not characteristics that can be changed at will. Let’s go all the way back to the first instance on page two:

He donated to the Proposition 8 campaign, not the AFA. Unless you are arguing that makes him support everything the AFA says, by association?
You first sentence implies that the AFA received no financial support due to a political means from Yes on Prop 8.
You second sentence if flat out disingenuous as it attempts to distract from the fact that the AFA outright supports discrimination against a group of people by their common, inherent characteristic (sexuality in this case).  Their sentiment and actions match his sentiment and actions by intent.
It is hate speech not free speech because of intentional targeting based upon inherent characteristic (sexuality in this case). Such is harmful because it seeks to oppress, demean and disenfranchise based upon inherent characteristic (sexuality in this case).


I'm pretty sure we were having an argument about whether or not harm can be used to separate free speech from hate speech. If you want to go and admit that you cannot and use another definition, I'm fine with that, but don't try to make it like I'm arguing something I'm not.
An early example of the legislative framework and history which established limits of speech when a population is targeted based upon inherit characteristic is Beaukarnais v. Illinois. This is a critical part of the history pertaining to how and why Group Libel was created as a legal concept.




Your argument continues to be "Eich had one point of agreement with some awful people, therefore we should treat him as equally awful in everything related to that point of agreement". My response continues to be that the AFA's views matter when we're discussing the AFA, and Eich's when we are discussing Eich.
If he only expressed sentiment then you would have a point. Because he knowingly supported a hate group politically and financially through proxy. It is not sentiment, it is action. The purpose and political entities involved with Yes on Prop 8 were publically known.

Secondly, his action entrapped Mozilla as California state law requires the employer of a person who donates must be listed. This leads me to your next quote.

Quote
The way people responded to his anti-gay views is an inherent part of him becoming a PR liability. Unless Mozilla actually discriminated against LGBT people as a result of his position as CEO, then the only problem is that people don't like his views (with good reason) and think he should be fired over them (not with good reason). Show me an example of that, and I'll freely admit I was misinformed and shut up.
Board members such as John Lilly GTFO and did not call for his resignation afterward because they had the foresight to realize this was going to be a disaster. Ms. Baker and Mr. Hoffman tried to keep him in Mozilla too.

Suspiciously not an example of Mozilla discriminating against LGBT people as a result of Eich being CEO. I'm not sure why you're putting it up as a response to the quoted part.
That is the hilarious part! For such to occur Mozilla does not need to discriminate against LGBT people. His action in 2008 entrapped Mozilla as California state law requires the employer of a person who donates must be listed. Mozilla loses either way! Promote him to CEO and the question of, ‘Who or what is stopping him from acting on his hatred again?’ is raised which creates a hostile work environment. Force him out and watch the outcry. Lose/lose. Some board members realized this snafu beforehand and GTFO.

The right course of action was to recognize that he is incapable of effectively handeling his duties as CEO beforehand due to previous actions while employed by Mozilla. The same applies to other representatives even councilors. If a person cannot remain objective at work than that person is not fit for the position.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 11:20:07 pm by The Illusive Man »
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2014, 12:31:59 am »
Sorry, a person donating to fight same sex marriage is not hate speech.  Illusive your using the term so loosely that it losses all meaning.  Every type of political donation could be seen as hate speech.

Second, having a CEO that donates to fight same sex marriages does not create a hostile work environment. 
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2014, 01:21:11 am »
I did not say Eich's speech wasn't hate speech because it was analogous to any of the examples above. I said that since speech that is clearly free falls under the vague category of harm, you can't use that to claim hate speech. As far as I can tell, you've only used the expression "inherent characteristic" once before, and it's not in the section I was responding to, so of course my quote above doesn't address it.
It would seem you do not know what an inherent characteristic is. Two quick examples: sexuality and race. These are characteristics that any given person inherits upon existence. Such are not characteristics that can be changed at will.

I appreciate the condescending English lesson, but I already know what "inherent" means. I have even used it before in sentences!

I don't recall disputing that sexuality is an inherent characteristic. I did say that you accuse me of ignoring something about inherent characteristics in a paragraph that was addressing a completely different part of the argument.

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I'm pretty sure we were having an argument about whether or not harm can be used to separate free speech from hate speech. If you want to go and admit that you cannot and use another definition, I'm fine with that, but don't try to make it like I'm arguing something I'm not.
An early example of the legislative framework and history which established limits of speech when a population is targeted based upon inherit characteristic is Beaukarnais v. Illinois. This is a critical part of the history pertaining to how and why Group Libel was created as a legal concept.

Fascinating. Would you care to elaborate on how that is relevant? Keep in mind that I'm not making a legal argument, with all that implies to the relevance of Supreme Court rulings.

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Your argument continues to be "Eich had one point of agreement with some awful people, therefore we should treat him as equally awful in everything related to that point of agreement". My response continues to be that the AFA's views matter when we're discussing the AFA, and Eich's when we are discussing Eich.
If he only expressed sentiment then you would have a point. Because he knowingly supported a hate group politically and financially through proxy. It is not sentiment, it is action. The purpose and political entities involved with Yes on Prop 8 were publically known.

And he supported them on one specific point of agreement and not their general platform.

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That is the hilarious part! For such to occur Mozilla does not need to discriminate against LGBT people. His action in 2008 entrapped Mozilla as California state law requires the employer of a person who donates must be listed. Mozilla loses either way! Promote him to CEO and the question of, ‘Who or what is stopping him from acting on his hatred again?’ is raised which creates a hostile work environment.


Bare assertion. Please justify.
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Offline The Illusive Man

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2014, 01:54:18 am »
I did not say Eich's speech wasn't hate speech because it was analogous to any of the examples above. I said that since speech that is clearly free falls under the vague category of harm, you can't use that to claim hate speech. As far as I can tell, you've only used the expression "inherent characteristic" once before, and it's not in the section I was responding to, so of course my quote above doesn't address it.
It would seem you do not know what an inherent characteristic is. Two quick examples: sexuality and race. These are characteristics that any given person inherits upon existence. Such are not characteristics that can be changed at will.
I appreciate the condescending English lesson, but I already know what "inherent" means. I have even used it before in sentences!
According to your claim posts ago, I have underlined it for convenience sake, the qualifier of harm is vague thus hate speech cannot be distinguished from free speech. 
I argue that harm, which designates hate speech, is not vague due to explicit targeting of individuals based upon inherent characteristic (sexuality). If harm was vague no such targeting could be possible and no intent could be demonstrated. Tell me, how can the qualifier of vague survive both of the above?



Fascinating. Would you care to elaborate on how that is relevant? Keep in mind that I'm not making a legal argument, with all that implies to the relevance of Supreme Court rulings.
Let’s go all the way back to page 2, again. Getting into TL:DR length here.
(click to show/hide)
You asked for a third party that that has quantified and qualified harm in a way that has widespread agreement. I have provided you an answer, the judicial system. Group libel was established way back in 1950 and is still valid today.


And he supported them on one specific point of agreement and not their general platform.
If it was just sentiment not action then the results would have been entirely different. His action entrapped Mozilla as per California law.


Quote
That is the hilarious part! For such to occur Mozilla does not need to discriminate against LGBT people. His action in 2008 entrapped Mozilla as California state law requires the employer of a person who donates must be listed. Mozilla loses either way! Promote him to CEO and the question of, ‘Who or what is stopping him from acting on his hatred again?’ is raised which creates a hostile work environment.


Bare assertion. Please justify.
Remember that link I posted?

Quote
Mr. Lilly, now a venture capitalist with Greylock Partners, resigned from the Mozilla board two weeks ago, ahead of Mr. Eich’s appointment. “I left rather than appoint him,” he said, declining to elaborate further.

The board knew about Mr. Eich’s donation, as it had been public for two years, but it thought any controversy would pass. In many ways, Mozilla was not ready for the blowback over Mr. Eich because it had not realized how much the company itself had changed.

Quote
Compounding the problem, two of the three directors who left ahead of Mr. Eich’s appointment had long before signaled that they would leave. When Mr. Eich was named, there were only two people on Mozilla’s board, Ms. Baker and Reid Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn. A third, Katharina Borchert, the head of Germany’s Spiegel Online, joined last week.
Both Ms. Baker and Mr. Hoffman said that they tried to get Mr. Eich to remain in a senior position at Mozilla, but that he quit because he thought it would cause more harm to the company if he stayed. “He was the right person for all of the technical growth, but the other things steered into him hard,” Mr. Hoffman said. “He said, ‘My continuing is not good for me or the organization.’ ”


Remember the sentiment expressed?
Quote
I love @mozilla but I'm disappointed this week. @mozilla stands for openness and empowerment, but is acting in the opposite way.@chmcavoy

Quote
To me, @Mozilla is about openness & expression of freedom. I hope to see us have leadership that represents those values in their actions.@emgollie
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 02:17:33 am by The Illusive Man »
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2014, 10:33:47 am »
According to your claim posts ago, I have underlined it for convenience sake, the qualifier of harm is vague thus hate speech cannot be distinguished from free speech. 
I argue that harm, which designates hate speech, is not vague due to explicit targeting of individuals based upon inherent characteristic (sexuality). If harm was vague no such targeting could be possible and no intent could be demonstrated. Tell me, how can the qualifier of vague survive both of the above?

Are you saying that's part of the definition of harm? Are you saying that you've explicitly qualified harm as targeting individuals based on inherent characteristics when you argued that it's the separator between free speech and hate speech? Because none of those is true, and I can't find any other interpretation of the bolded sentence that makes sense.

Quote
Fascinating. Would you care to elaborate on how that is relevant? Keep in mind that I'm not making a legal argument, with all that implies to the relevance of Supreme Court rulings.
Let’s go all the way back to page 2, again. Getting into TL:DR length here.
(click to show/hide)
You asked for a third party that that has quantified and qualified harm in a way that has widespread agreement. I have provided you an answer, the judicial system. Group libel was established way back in 1950 and is still valid today.

Thanks, I guess. Would've been nice if you'd actually said that in response to my asking for that, or quoted my point before mentioning it, or something.

As to your actual point: As far as I can tell, this is the definition of harm for purposes of libel: "A statement is harmful if it seriously shames, ridicules, disgraces or injures a person's reputation or causes others to do so." Is this the definition of harm you have in mind? If not, do me a favour and tell me what it is rather than wait four days and eight posts in the discussion to bring it up. Once you have confirmed what you actually mean, I'll argue relevance to free speech and Eich's case in particular.

Quote
And he supported them on one specific point of agreement and not their general platform.
If it was just sentiment not action then the results would have been entirely different. His action entrapped Mozilla as per California law.

Entrapped as in "the act of government agents or officials that induces a person to commit a crime he or she is not previously disposed to commit"? I don't see how that applies.

Quote
Quote
That is the hilarious part! For such to occur Mozilla does not need to discriminate against LGBT people. His action in 2008 entrapped Mozilla as California state law requires the employer of a person who donates must be listed. Mozilla loses either way! Promote him to CEO and the question of, ‘Who or what is stopping him from acting on his hatred again?’ is raised which creates a hostile work environment.


Bare assertion. Please justify.
Remember that link I posted?

Quote
Mr. Lilly, now a venture capitalist with Greylock Partners, resigned from the Mozilla board two weeks ago, ahead of Mr. Eich’s appointment. “I left rather than appoint him,” he said, declining to elaborate further.

The board knew about Mr. Eich’s donation, as it had been public for two years, but it thought any controversy would pass. In many ways, Mozilla was not ready for the blowback over Mr. Eich because it had not realized how much the company itself had changed.

Quote
Compounding the problem, two of the three directors who left ahead of Mr. Eich’s appointment had long before signaled that they would leave. When Mr. Eich was named, there were only two people on Mozilla’s board, Ms. Baker and Reid Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn. A third, Katharina Borchert, the head of Germany’s Spiegel Online, joined last week.
Both Ms. Baker and Mr. Hoffman said that they tried to get Mr. Eich to remain in a senior position at Mozilla, but that he quit because he thought it would cause more harm to the company if he stayed. “He was the right person for all of the technical growth, but the other things steered into him hard,” Mr. Hoffman said. “He said, ‘My continuing is not good for me or the organization.’ ”


Remember the sentiment expressed?
Quote
I love @mozilla but I'm disappointed this week. @mozilla stands for openness and empowerment, but is acting in the opposite way.@chmcavoy

Quote
To me, @Mozilla is about openness & expression of freedom. I hope to see us have leadership that represents those values in their actions.@emgollie

People not liking a decision is not equivalent to a hostile work environment.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2014, 05:17:10 pm »
As long as there is no hostile work environment created or encouraged by it, any employee or employer has the right to contribute to political causes, even if those causes are so badly on the wrong side of history that we are looking at months, or a few years at most, to when they will be rendered moot.

Firing people because of public outcry against their personally held beliefs and outside-of-work activities is something that cuts both ways. I lost a couple of jobs (in the '80's and early '90's) because my employers discovered I was gay and a progressive who attended rallies and protests for various causes, not just LGBTQ rights. Their stated "reasons" for firing me was because my political activities could get me arrested and my name and workplace might be mentioned by the press. And because they were "family oriented" businesses. So yeah. I don't wish that kind of abuse on anyone, even a person who is my socio-political "enemy". Because this is supposed to be a free country. It will never be a free country if you are only free outside of work.
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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2014, 01:18:38 am »
I honestly don't effin care what happens to him. (Within reason, numbnuts).


Offline The Illusive Man

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2014, 02:09:39 am »
Are you saying that's part of the definition of harm? Are you saying that you've explicitly qualified harm as targeting individuals based on inherent characteristics when you argued that it's the separator between free speech and hate speech? Because none of those is true, and I can't find any other interpretation of the bolded sentence that makes sense.
How and why is harm, as a qualifier of hate speech, not intentional and targeted?

As to your actual point: As far as I can tell, this is the definition of harm for purposes of libel: "A statement is harmful if it seriously shames, ridicules, disgraces or injures a person's reputation or causes others to do so." Is this the definition of harm you have in mind? If not, do me a favour and tell me what it is rather than wait four days and eight posts in the discussion to bring it up. Once you have confirmed what you actually mean, I'll argue relevance to free speech and Eich's case in particular.
An interesting, close summation. However, intention needs to be mentioned as intention needs to be proved. For the sake of expediency, "A statement is harmful if it is intentionally created to seriously shame, ridicule, disgrace or injure a person's reputation or causes others to do so.” As per New York Times Co. v. Sullivan intent has to be proven.

Group Libel thus requires a group of persons to be intentionally targeted based upon common characteristic. In this case the common characteristic is an inherit characteristic (sexuality).



Entrapped as in "the act of government agents or officials that induces a person to commit a crime he or she is not previously disposed to commit"? I don't see how that applies.
Very sloppy wording on my part, mea culpa.

People not liking a decision is not equivalent to a hostile work environment.
As long as there is no hostile work environment created or encouraged by it, any employee or employer has the right to contribute to political causes, even if those causes are so badly on the wrong side of history that we are looking at months, or a few years at most, to when they will be rendered moot.

His action created prerequisite conditions which resulted in dedicated opposition among employees and half the board members outright leaving when he it was inevitable that he would become CEO. Such did not occur when he was a member of the board. I assumed that people would ask why.

Arbitration. A board member can be overruled by other board members. It is possible to do the same to the CEO despite the appearance of representing the company. Because the board members who opposed his nomination due to his previous actions left, the question of who would act if he acted upon his hatred remains legitimate. The ensuing conflict and explicating targeting of homosexuals is enough to create a hostile work environment due to a perceived, credible threat with no means of arbitration.

Firing people because of public outcry against their personally held beliefs and outside-of-work activities is something that cuts both ways. I lost a couple of jobs (in the '80's and early '90's) because my employers discovered I was gay and a progressive who attended rallies and protests for various causes, not just LGBTQ rights. Their stated "reasons" for firing me was because my political activities could get me arrested and my name and workplace might be mentioned by the press. And because they were "family oriented" businesses. So yeah. I don't wish that kind of abuse on anyone, even a person who is my socio-political "enemy". Because this is supposed to be a free country. It will never be a free country if you are only free outside of work.
Firing you because of your inherit characteristic (sexuality) is outright discrimination. You did not pose a creditable threat to that company because I assume that you were not placed in a unique position to represent that company (CEO) with no possible arbitration.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2014, 04:15:15 pm »
Quote
Firing you because of your inherit characteristic (sexuality) is outright discrimination. You did not pose a creditable threat to that company because I assume that you were not placed in a unique position to represent that company (CEO) with no possible arbitration.

TIM, I was a general manager at one of those lost jobs, actually, and legally defined as a full representative of the company. My point being though, that if free expression outside of the workplace is allowed to be a termination cause, by whichever degree, be it voting, party affiliation, activism, political donations, FB/tweet posting of Halloween party pictures of yourself holding a plastic drink cup or wearing a bikini while posing on top of your boat, etc., then there is no actual freedom of expression, in fact.

Being vulnerable to actions that result in economic hardship and loss of good reputation (try to explain a putative dismissal on a resume and make it look like you aren't a whiner) means you are oppress-able without recourse to due process, without the immediate safeguards of citizen rights. You are effectively rendered an indentured servant, subject to the whim and sufferance of your employer, the moment you arrive at work....and every moment away from work, as well. Yes, there are some states where you can be made whole again after a wrongful dismissal, but I believe the majority of states now have some code equivalent of Right To Work statutes (oh, the travesty of that anti-union, double-think terminology!). In places like that, you are SOL if you get fired or pressured into resigning because of your life style or political beliefs.

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Offline The Illusive Man

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2014, 04:09:39 am »
TIM, I was a general manager at one of those lost jobs, actually, and legally defined as a full representative of the company. My point being though, that if free expression outside of the workplace is allowed to be a termination cause, by whichever degree, be it voting, party affiliation, activism, political donations, FB/tweet posting of Halloween party pictures of yourself holding a plastic drink cup or wearing a bikini while posing on top of your boat, etc., then there is no actual freedom of expression, in fact.
Tell me, how are any of what you listed equivocal to intentional targeting of a group of persons by inherit characteristic? Their excuse of your activism does not hold water because they need to prove that your activism is harmful and they need to prove intent. I am willing to bet that they did neither thus it was wrongful termination.

This brings up a something that people have missed. The outcry against Eich did not occur in 2008, when he made the donations. It only occurred years later when the means of arbitration (board members) who would counter him if he acted upon his hatred left.


Being vulnerable to actions that result in economic hardship and loss of good reputation (try to explain a putative dismissal on a resume and make it look like you aren't a whiner) means you are oppress-able without recourse to due process, without the immediate safeguards of citizen rights. You are effectively rendered an indentured servant, subject to the whim and sufferance of your employer, the moment you arrive at work....and every moment away from work, as well. Yes, there are some states where you can be made whole again after a wrongful dismissal, but I believe the majority of states now have some code equivalent of Right To Work statutes (oh, the travesty of that anti-union, double-think terminology!). In places like that, you are SOL if you get fired or pressured into resigning because of your life style or political beliefs.
Forcing him out was not the right course of action, having him divorce Mozilla from his previous action is. That situation is one part legal snafu (Mozilla listed on his donation), one part management fuckup (board members GTFO instead of voting thus no arbitration) and one part Eich making things worse by further entangling Mozilla via interviews.
Despite knowing about indoctrination I thought it was a good idea to put a human Reaper near my office. Now I am a sentient husk :(.

*RRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRR* *SCREECH* *smokes*


Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Mozilla CEO Steps Down, Homophobes Cry Foul
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2014, 04:58:51 pm »
Are you saying that's part of the definition of harm? Are you saying that you've explicitly qualified harm as targeting individuals based on inherent characteristics when you argued that it's the separator between free speech and hate speech? Because none of those is true, and I can't find any other interpretation of the bolded sentence that makes sense.
How and why is harm, as a qualifier of hate speech, not intentional and targeted?

I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying you did not qualify it that way all the way back at the beginning of the argument when you said harm was the separator between free and hate speech.

The point is moot anyway since you clarified exactly what you meant by harm below.

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For the sake of expediency, "A statement is harmful if it is intentionally created to seriously shame, ridicule, disgrace or injure a person's reputation or causes others to do so.” As per New York Times Co. v. Sullivan intent has to be proven.

Group Libel thus requires a group of persons to be intentionally targeted based upon common characteristic. In this case the common characteristic is an inherit characteristic (sexuality).

Alright then. If the statement in question is the one made by the donation ("gay people should not have the right to marry who they want"), then it does not shame or injure anyone's reputation. It doesn't fit the definition. If you have another statement in mind, what is it?

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People not liking a decision is not equivalent to a hostile work environment.
As long as there is no hostile work environment created or encouraged by it, any employee or employer has the right to contribute to political causes, even if those causes are so badly on the wrong side of history that we are looking at months, or a few years at most, to when they will be rendered moot.

His action created prerequisite conditions which resulted in dedicated opposition among employees and half the board members outright leaving when he it was inevitable that he would become CEO. Such did not occur when he was a member of the board. I assumed that people would ask why.

Arbitration. A board member can be overruled by other board members. It is possible to do the same to the CEO despite the appearance of representing the company. Because the board members who opposed his nomination due to his previous actions left, the question of who would act if he acted upon his hatred remains legitimate. The ensuing conflict and explicating targeting of homosexuals is enough to create a hostile work environment due to a perceived, credible threat with no means of arbitration.

The problem being that Eich did nothing as CEO to give credence to the threat. In effect he's being punished not for what he did but what people thought he might do later on.
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