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Shootings in Hanau, Germany

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Yes, I agree it is very important to read your sources. I read your sources last time and they simply didn't say what you said they did.

Now without checking your sources, why don't we talk about your figures for the pre and post 96 death rates from mass shootings in Australia.

106 dead beforehand and 53 dead after. Bearing in mind that there has been a demographic explosion in Australia since 1996 with there being 18 odd million Australians in 1996 (there where 12.5 million in 1970) and there now being 25 million odd.

So with millions of more people there were double the mass shooting deaths prior to the gun laws. Besides which I accept that gun laws aren't going to prevent organised crime conflicts, eg the bikies, or domestic violence deaths, which sadly are likely to continue irrespective of gun laws. What they do stop is domestic terrorists like that Christchurch wanker or loons like Martin Bryant having access to weapons which could effectively halt a roman legion. Now I accept that loons can still do terrible damage with cars (although we have traffic bollards for that) or a knife. However there are many reasons to prefer to have a loon armed only with a knife. Certainly safer for police.

Again why don't you list the number of school shootings in the US in the last 5 years. How many school shootings in Australia or the UK?

At how many of the school shootings did the school have armed guards? How many times did the armed guards kill or subdue the shooter? How many people died before they did so?

Have you ever thought of the psychological impact it might have on developing kids to have armed guards or clear backpacks? Active shooter drills?

Now I accept that there is a lot of nuance to hunting and not of all it is what you would call recreational, but even so unrestricted access to semi-automatic weapons is not necessary for it. We have big wild boar in Australia too and there hasn't been a spate of hunters/farmers getting mauled or injured due to the lack of semi-automatic weapons. Plenty of people still hunt them with bows and knives.

You certainly don't need an AR-15 to hunt a mountain goat. Trapping is usually more efficient at culling than hunting anyway.

But really I am not being hysterical about this. It says a lot about your position that it is clearly pointed at suggesting that I am.  Any recreational hunter who says that his hobby should continue unrestricted is simply saying that his hobby is worth more than the lives of school kids who have been shot. That's the cost benefit analysis.The same way someone who wants to drive everywhere at 100 km/hr over the speed limit is suggesting that their hurry is worth more than the lives around them. Actions have consequences and it is important that people reflect on what they are. Communities make choices and the US have made their choice on this.


--- Quote from: Vanto on March 03, 2020, 01:28:44 pm ---Skybison, I can point to many good guys with guns stopping mass shootings: Dmitriy Andreychenko, Juan Carlos Nazario and Bryan Whittle, Don Smith and Nathan Taylor, and of course Jack Wilson. Their names should be more famous than those of any mass shooter, IMO. Here's a handy list of concealed-carry permit holders who stopped mass public shootings and other mass attacks.
--- End quote ---

Yes I am aware that there are examples of private citizens who stopped mass shootings.  However that is besides my point that I see little evidence that "good guys with guns" are effective at preventing violence in general, just like being able to make a list of people who were harmed by vaccines does not mean vaccines are dangerous in general.

--- Quote ---Before I post my sources, I'd like you to promise me that you won't dismiss them out of hand, but really consider what they have to say. Not assuming anything about you, I've just seen too many people dismissing my sources without even bothering to examining them. Since I don't hold others to standards I won't hold myself to, I promise I won't immediately dismiss your sources either.
--- End quote ---

Yes I will not dismiss any sources you site out of hand (well unless I have good reason to do so like of you post to a claim by a flat earther or something).  However I find your insistence on this frustrating because...

--- Quote ---Before I forget, since you're Canadian, it may interest you to know that your country had only 18 mass shootings in the 27 years before 1991 Bill C-17, but 50 afterward. Since there aren't that many, I'll just list them in a couple spoilers. You can verify these shootings if you'd like.

(click to show/hide)Leonard Hogue murders, 1965: 8 Dead by firearm

Mathew Charles Lamb, 1966: 2 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Shell Lake murders, 1967: 9 Dead by firearm

Dale Merle Nelson, 1970: 8 Dead. 4 by firearm, 1 by hammer, 2 by stabbing, 1 beaten with fire extinguisher

William Bernard Lepine, 1972: 6 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

St. Pius X High School shooting, 1975: 3 Dead. 1 Dead by stabbing and 2 Dead & 6 wounded by firearm

Brampton Centennial Secondary School Massacre, 1975: 3 Dead & 13 wounded by firearm

Wells Gray Provincial Park Family Murders, 1982: 6 Dead by firearm

Bruce Alfred Blackman, 1983: 6 Dead by firearm

Quebec National Assembly Shootings, 1984: 3 Dead & 13 wounded by firearm

Lennoxville massacre, 1985: 6 Dead by firearm

École Polytechnique massacre, 1989: 15 Dead & 14 wounded by firearm

Winnipeg Raymond Reid Stand Off, 1989: 4 Dead by firearm

Valleyview Family Murders \ Gavin Joseph Mandin, 1991: 4 Dead by firearm
(click to show/hide)Sydney River Nova Scotia McDonalds Robbery, 1992: 3 Dead & 1 wounded by firearm

Concordia University massacre, 1992: 4 Dead & 1 wounded

Daniel Jolivet Gangland Murders, 1992: 4 dead by firearm

Whip Burger Nightclub Shooting, 1994: 2 Dead & 4 wounded by firearm

Ottawa Vanessa Ritchie Murders, 1995: 4 Dead by firearm

Surrey James Huang murders, 1996: 5 Dead by firearm

Mark Chahal Massacre, 1996: 10 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Gore Bay Ian Long Murders, 1996: 4 Dead by firearm

Abbotsford farmhouse murders, 1996: 5 Dead by firearm

Orangeville Ludvik Kirec, 1997: 5 Dead by firearm

Janko Cindric Murders, 1997: 4 Dead by firearm

Kitimat campground triple-murder \Kevin Louis Vermette Killings , 1997: 3 Dead & 1 wounded by firearm

OC Transpo Shooting, 1999: 5 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Bill Luft Murders, 2000: 6 Dead. 5 Dead by firearm & 1 dead by stabbing

John Bauer Murders, 2001: 7 Dead by firearm

Cruse family murders, 2002: 5 Dead by firearm

Jay Handel Murders, 2002: 6 Dead. 2 by strangling & 4 by firearm

Vancouver Loft Six shooting, 2003: 3 Dead & 5 wounded by firearm

Jacques Picard Homicides Otterburn Park, 2003: 4 dead by firearm

Penticton Reserve Shooting, 2004: 3 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

London Ontario family shooting, 2005: 4 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Mayerthorpe tragedy, 2005: 5 Dead by firearm

Toronto Prestige Palace shooting \ Livette Olivea Moore Murder, 2005: 1 Dead & 6 wounded by firearm

Boxing Day Shooting \ Jane Creba Murder, 2005: 1 Dead & 6 wounded by firearm

Shedden Bandidos massacre, 2006: 8 Dead by firearm

Ottawa Mailly Family murders, 2006: 5 Dead by firearm

Dawson College shooting, 2006: 2 Dead & 19 wounded by firearm

Edmonton Red Light Lounge Shooting, 2006: 3 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Therapist Dragolub Tzokovitch Murders, 2006: 4 Dead by firearm

Vaughan Strip Club Shooting \David Buchanan Murder, 2006: 1 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Toronto Queen Street West Shooting November 11, 2006: 4 wounded by firearm

East Preston House Party Shooting \ Brandon Beals and Martaze Provo Murders, 2006: 2 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Rexdale Shooting \ Jose Hierro-Saez Murder , 2007: 1 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Cambridge Bay Home Invasion Shootings, 2007: 3 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Vancouver Fortune Happiness Restaurant shooting, 2007: 2 Dead & 6 wounded by firearm

Surrey Six Shootings, 2007: 6 Dead by firearm

Fort Qu'appelle Double Murder, 2007: 2 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Jane-Finch Shooting Spree \ Rachel Alleyne Murder, 2007: 1 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Winnipeg Triple Slaying, 2008: 3 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Etobicoke Coffee shop shooting March, 2008: 4 wounded by firearm

Toronto 87 Amaranth Court shooting \ Abdikarim Ahmed Abdikarim Murder, 2008: 1 Dead & 5 wounded by firearm

Duke of York Tavern shooting, 2008: 1 Dead & 4 wounded by firearm

Calgary Food In East Restaurant Shooting, 2008: 2 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Toronto 121 Humber blvd shooting November, 2008: 4 wounded by firearm

Alberta Ian Pagent Murder-Suicide, 2009: 4 Dead by firearm

Etobicoke Birthday Party Shooting May, 2009: 6 wounded by firearm

Brampton House Party Shooting June \ Brampton Double Murder, 2009: 2 Dead & 6 wounded by firearm

Toronto First Choice shooting \ Andre Daley Murder , 2009: 1 Dead & 4 wounded by firearm

Falstaff Ave. shooting \ Aeon Grant Murder, 2009: 1 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Vancouver Gang birthday party Shooting, 2010: 10 wounded

Toronto West End Humber blvd shooting August, 2010: 4 wounded by firearm

Kelowna Hotel Gangland shooting \ Jonathan Bacon Murder , 2011: 1 Dead & 4 wounded by firearm

Claresholm highway massacre, 2011: 4 Dead & 1 wounded by firearm

University of Edmonton, Alberta Armored Car Robbery \ Travis Brandon Baumgartner, 2012: 3 Dead & 1 wounded by firearm

Eaton Centre Shooting, 2012: 2 Dead & 6 wounded by firearm

Calgary Restaurant shooting, 2012: 1 Dead & 3 wounded

Danzig Street shooting, 2012: 2 Dead & 24 wounded by firearm

Yorkville Empire nightclub shooting, 2013: 5 Wounded by firearm

Chaudière-Appalaches Martin Godin Cinq Morts février, 2014: 5 Dead by firearm

Nanaimo Sawmill Shooting, 2014: 2 Dead & 2 wounded

Parliament Hill, Ottawa Shooting, 2014: 2 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Rexdale Shootings May \ Etobicoke General Hospital Shooting, 2014: 4 wounded by firearm

Moncton shooting, 2014: 3 Dead & 2 wounded

Edmonton Mass Murder \ Phu Lam Murders, 2014: 9 Dead by firearm

Calgary new years Eve party shooting, 2015: 1 Dead & 6 wounded by firearm

Driftwood Ave. townhouse shooting, 2015: 5 wounded by firearm

Vaughan cafe shooting, 2015: 2 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Drake’s OVO Fest Muzik Nightclub Shooting, 2015: 2 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Michel Dubuc Murder Spree, 2015: 5 Dead by firearm

Toronto Chinatown shooting, 2016: 2 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Rapper Sizzlac Murder, 2016: 1 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Stoney Creek triple murder-suicide, 2016: 4 Dead by firearm

La Loche School shootings, 2016: 4 Dead & 7 injured by firearm

Montreal Crime Spree \ Frederick Gingras Shootings, 2016: 2 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Quebec City mosque shooting, 2017: 6 Dead & 19 injured by firearm

Sage Hill Calgary Quadruple Homicide, 2017: 4 Dead by firearm

Shawinigan Triple Murder \ Sylvain Duquette, 2017: 3 Dead & wounded by firearm

Upper Big Tracadie Tragedy \ Lionel Desmond Murders, 2017: 4 Dead by firearm

McGradies Tap & Grill Shooting \ Scarborough Bar Shooting, 2017: 5 wounded by firearm

Toronto Patio Bar Shooting \ Libertarian Public House Shooting, 2017: 1 Dead & 4 wounded by firearm

Thorold L8 Nightclub Shooting, 2017: 5 wounded by firearm

Etobicoke Shooting January, 2018: 2 Dead & 2 wounded by firearm

Kensington Market shooting, 2018: 1 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm

Pickering Ribfest shooting, 2018: 4 wounded by firearm

Danforth Shooting, 2018: 3 Dead & 13 wounded

Ryerson Township murder suicide, 2018: 4 dead by firearm

Fredericton New Brunswick Shooting, 2018: 4 Dead & 1 wounded by firearm

Michael Campbell Murder \ Hamilton Shooting August, 2018: 1 Dead & 3 wounded by firearm
--- End quote ---

Why did you post that?  Why did you say this as if I was unaware of this argument?  I specifically said in the post you are responding to that I had heard this basic claim before and explained my reasons for why I believe the jumps in mass shootings may be an illusion.  But then you post this list as if I had not just said I was familiar with this claim without addressing why I said I think this might be incorrect.  That does leave me with the impression that you are not paying much attention to what I am saying which is annoying since you are also asking me to promise not to dismiss your arguments out of hand.

Like I said, I believe these jumps to be the result of shootings becoming better reported on due to there just being a lot more media today, the politicized nature of mass shootings and older media sources being hard to find means it is much easier to get information on shootings in the 2000s then in the 1960s.
In short I don't think there are more mass shootings in Canada now, I think they are just easier to find out about.  For example 54 of the 88 shootings you list since 91 were small shootings with 3 or fewer deaths (61%) but only 4 of the 14 you list of earlier were (28%).  In fact of your post 91 list 12 are incidents where no one was killed (13%).  Since the Canadian homicide rate has fallen almost by half since 1970, it seems very hard for me to believe that there were no shooting with 1 person killed and a few wounded before recently.  So I believe this jump is not actually real, but I would need to examine your source to be sure.

Another observation is that while I did not have time to examine every single post 91 shooting, of the various ones I did randomly look up the majority seemed to have been committed with handguns, not the military assault rifles and long guns that the 91 regulations focused on.  The sort of mass shooting where a shooter with an AR-15 or similar weapon kill dozens at once  have not happened in Canada.  Plenty of Canadian gun control advocates have been arguing for a long time now that canadian law hasn't done enough about handguns, and your list seems like an argument in their favor instead of one that the 91 bill c-17 was counter productive.

Okay so I know this thread is old but Vanto I genuinely do want to know what your source was for that list.  Canadian true crime stuff has become an interest of mine lately and I would like to look at it.

Yeah, my source is a redditor who claims to specialize in investigating cases like this. I admit I was skeptical at first, but my own research seems to back up what they're saying.

Sorry I haven't been that active by the way. I haven't been able to reliably connect to these forums lately. Thankfully, I think I've fixed that issue.

While I'm here, I might as well address some other things:

- What a lot of people seem to not understand is that good guys with guns are a deterrent. There's a reason most mass shooters, including those who want to die, choose gun-free zones: they can kill more people. Deterrence can save many lives.

- It's not impossible that mass shootings have been more reported on recently, but I don't think it's very likely either. Though I wouldn't mind investigating to find out.

- You know, earlier you suggested Europe having more deaths per mass shooting was a sign that they're not as used to mass shooting incidents as America is. Does the same logic not apply here? Maybe the number of mass shooting deaths per shooting is going down because mass shootings are getting more common in Canada (and Australia too).

- There is evidence to suggest that taking action on handguns wouldn't necessarily work. Over in the UK, gun homicides actually INCREASED after the 1997 handgun ban. Gun crime is on the rise there again now, at least in some areas. And that's in a much smaller country without any land borders.

Now for some of davedan's points:

- You talk about the psychological impact of armed guards at schools. Well, what about the psychological impact of constantly hyping up the dangers of mass shootings, something that kills fewer Americans every year than falling out of bed? Maybe calling you "hysterical" was unfair, but I feel like you're blowing the issue out of proportion.

- Gun laws do not reliably stop domestic terrorists. Domestic terrorist attacks have been carried out with semi-automatic weapons in France and Canada.

Again why don't you list the number of school shootings in the US in the last 5 years. How many school shootings in Australia or the UK?

At how many of the school shootings did the school have armed guards? How many times did the armed guards kill or subdue the shooter? How many people died before they did so?


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