Author Topic: Awesome Protest Signs  (Read 606600 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Ironchew

  • Official Edgelord
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1888
  • Gender: Male
  • The calm, intellectual Trotsky-like Trotskyist
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2310 on: August 26, 2014, 10:07:42 pm »
Yeah, philosophy teaches you counterarguments to help along discourse. Too bad most teenagers go into rage-mode instead of debating.

I'm not a fan of the formal debate structure. It's not focused on who's closer to the truth; instead, it's about who presents their argument with more style. This is why we see creationists desperately trying to "destroy" evolution using formal debate -- techniques like the Gish gallop play on cognitive biases and attempt to force the opponent to focus on rapid-fire non-truths and a formal debate does nothing to address this. The only formats I've seen that address the Gish gallop are asymmetrical in nature (e.g. a call-in show) where a hopefully rational host can easily cut off the caller and force them to go one point at a time, not getting to present their whole argument if anything in it is blatantly false.

Science is the best tool we presently have to find the truths of nature, but it's hardly ever a performance art. The evidence and theories needed to overturn a consensus can't be presented in one debate but instead move along at the glacial pace of peer review, figuring out the math, and repeating experiments.
Consumption is not a politically combative act — refraining from consumption even less so.

Offline Sigmaleph

  • Ungodlike
  • Administrator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3615
    • sigmaleph on tumblr
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2311 on: August 26, 2014, 10:45:28 pm »
The obvious counter to the Gish Gallop is the written debate, where you're not expected to rapid-fire answers and you have the time to explain your point carefully, look up evidence, etc.

"Being right" and "convincing people" are in general two separate skills, but the separation is much more pronounced when you are limited to arguments you can explain in five minutes and your best response to contradictory evidence is to take it on the speaker's authority.
Σא

Offline guizonde

  • anglican occitan
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
  • capslock is the devil
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2312 on: August 26, 2014, 11:01:15 pm »
Yeah, philosophy teaches you counterarguments to help along discourse. Too bad most teenagers go into rage-mode instead of debating.

I'm not a fan of the formal debate structure. It's not focused on who's closer to the truth; instead, it's about who presents their argument with more style. This is why we see creationists desperately trying to "destroy" evolution using formal debate -- techniques like the Gish gallop play on cognitive biases and attempt to force the opponent to focus on rapid-fire non-truths and a formal debate does nothing to address this. The only formats I've seen that address the Gish gallop are asymmetrical in nature (e.g. a call-in show) where a hopefully rational host can easily cut off the caller and force them to go one point at a time, not getting to present their whole argument if anything in it is blatantly false.

Science is the best tool we presently have to find the truths of nature, but it's hardly ever a performance art. The evidence and theories needed to overturn a consensus can't be presented in one debate but instead move along at the glacial pace of peer review, figuring out the math, and repeating experiments.

Too true, but I'm sorry to say that you misinterpreted what I meant to say and thus your (correct) analysis came off as somewhat non-sequitur (goddammit, must not drink, else latin). In philosophy class, the normal argument comes off as this: thesis-antithesis-synthesis.

Step 1: you announce your point of view. (The thesis, in which you state your initial claim)
Step 2: you present the counterargument. (The antithesis, in which you offer a rebuttal to your initial claim)
Step 3: you conclude whichever way you feel like. (The synthesis, in which you conclude your argument)

It's all so prim, proper, and codified it should feel like playing mental chess. My fondest memory of the lycée was one where I had to play devil's advocate to an avowed communist. Toughest mental exercise I'd gotten 'til that point. It was delicious. What I was trying to say, and that makes what you said a tangent, is that nowadays you get either reactionnaries who are yelling (and I don't exaggerate) that the old ways were better, or the young guard who are yelling (louder) that the reactionnaries are fascists. We're pretty far from civil discourse, let alone Socrates' methods.

as an aside, we study René Descartes in class, which bridges the gap between math and philosophy. By the way, I was never a fan of philosophy class, even if I come off biased. Thinking about people thinking about how people think is too much of a "yo dawg" moment for me, unfortunately, the teacher assumed that I was trolling whereas I was willingly testing the philosophy (or way of thinking) du jour to the breaking point. That's why I was the teacher's favorite devil's advocate when we talked about it: I am a crash-tester. To this day I do not regret having sunk 8 hours weekly into this course for a school-year. It's just that the lesson was learned as I matured, but I'm not a philosopher by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, LeTipex has a degree, I'm a historian. He philosophizes, I study people who philosophized.


(I love the english language, you can totally create a term like "philosophize" and make it sound like it's not awkward at all...) ;D

@Sigma: The discourse exercise is "convincing others" and nothing else. That's why it's so tough on the nerves and on the students. But to the gish gallop, I counter personnally stenographied notes and a point-by-point rebuttal (whatever works, I guess).
@ guizonde: I think I like the way you think.
Warning: Biohazardously Awesome


0_o 0_0 ¯\(º_o)/¯

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8108
  • Gender: Male
  • A man of no consequence.
    • My Twitter
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2313 on: August 27, 2014, 10:24:43 am »
You don't *need* a college course to learn formal logic, but unless you had a math Nazi of an Algebra II instructor, I wouldn't expect most high schoolers (or really anyone except math and philosophy majors) to be writing out formal proofs using the notation of formal logic.

Not all philosophy is postmodern. Most of it has a similar rigor as math.

Wait...your teacher didn't have you go thru a whole unit on mathematical proofs and theorems?  My class and I spent a quarter of that whole year going thru and learning to do proofs.  Not that I retained...well, any of it, mind you, but I remember going thru it, and our teacher wasn't unpleasant about it in the slightest.

I will, however, agree that modern debate is fundamentally flawed.  I may have passed debate class because I had technical acumen the teacher could exploit to get her work done in less time (didn't mind that in the slightest), but I did pay attention during the odd lecture she gave.  Modern debate is closer to reality television than it is to actually getting facts out; it doesn't matter who has the more rational, well-formed opinion, it only matters who can metaphorically eat bugs the fastest and not throw up.
Quote from: Bra'tac
Life for the sake of life means nothing.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2314 on: August 27, 2014, 08:18:57 pm »

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2315 on: August 28, 2014, 10:52:59 pm »

Offline Canadian Mojo

  • Don't Steal Him. We Need Him. He Makes Us Cool!
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
  • Gender: Male
  • Υπό σκιή
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2316 on: August 29, 2014, 03:58:43 am »
I have a problem with the lower photo because because of the blatant favoritism going on in the house. The boy gets a crappy old AK for Christmas and his sisters get AR's.

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8108
  • Gender: Male
  • A man of no consequence.
    • My Twitter
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2317 on: August 29, 2014, 08:00:54 am »
I dunno, in the top photo, the kid in the middle is pointing his gun at the kid to his left.  Everyone could use a gun safety course, just in case.
Quote from: Bra'tac
Life for the sake of life means nothing.

Offline Beezlebub

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • Gender: Male
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2318 on: August 29, 2014, 12:20:16 pm »
I dunno, in the top photo, the kid in the middle is pointing his gun at the kid to his left.  Everyone could use a gun safety course, just in case.


Neither of them seem to get that you are never supposed to put your finger on the trigger unless you are absolutely sure you want to shoot what you're pointing it at.

Gun safety is pretty much 5 minutes on how to shoot your gun, with 20 hours on how to not shoot it.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 06:25:54 pm by Beezlebub »
"If they want to take away our porn, they'll have to pry it from my cold, dead, well-exercised right hand"

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2319 on: August 31, 2014, 09:20:07 am »

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2320 on: August 31, 2014, 03:32:14 pm »

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8108
  • Gender: Male
  • A man of no consequence.
    • My Twitter
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2321 on: August 31, 2014, 06:07:46 pm »


Perfectly agreeable.  Except that it needs a big, fat "YET" in there, somewhere.  Its only a matter of time.
Quote from: Bra'tac
Life for the sake of life means nothing.

Offline Ironchew

  • Official Edgelord
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1888
  • Gender: Male
  • The calm, intellectual Trotsky-like Trotskyist
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2322 on: August 31, 2014, 06:15:14 pm »
Perfectly agreeable.  Except that it needs a big, fat "YET" in there, somewhere.  Its only a matter of time.

What energy source/propulsion method would you suggest that would get us all the way to another habitable star system? Granted that, how would you evacuate more than a tiny sliver of Earth's population?

For almost all of us, this is the only planet we've got.
Consumption is not a politically combative act — refraining from consumption even less so.

Offline Cataclysm

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2458
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2323 on: August 31, 2014, 09:23:42 pm »
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

Quote
Commenter Brendan Rizzo is an American (still living there) who really, really hates America. He used to make posts defending his country from anti-American attacks but got fed up with it all.

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8108
  • Gender: Male
  • A man of no consequence.
    • My Twitter
Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2324 on: August 31, 2014, 09:42:32 pm »
Perfectly agreeable.  Except that it needs a big, fat "YET" in there, somewhere.  Its only a matter of time.

What energy source/propulsion method would you suggest that would get us all the way to another habitable star system? Granted that, how would you evacuate more than a tiny sliver of Earth's population?

For almost all of us, this is the only planet we've got.

Ya know, for someone so big on their own perceived intellect, you really need to work on your reading comprehension.
Quote from: Bra'tac
Life for the sake of life means nothing.