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Religion and Philosophy / Re: Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?
« Last post by Tolpuddle Martyr on September 07, 2021, 12:21:35 am »
Of course that was the point, if there's no fall there's no lesson to be learned. Just a weird human zoo where the inhabitants munch on anything not apple related. It'd make the bible a lot shorter, less bloody and a whole lot less confusing.

It's basic worldbuilding, no conflict, no interest, nobody cares.
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by Tolpuddle Martyr on September 07, 2021, 12:15:36 am »
Interesting factoid, its not clear if Gnostics were trinitarians. From Wikipedia.

Quote
Alexandria was of central importance for the birth of Gnosticism. The Christian ecclesia (i. e. congregation, church) was of Jewish–Christian origin, but also attracted Greek members, and various strands of thought were available, such as "Judaic apocalypticism, speculation on divine wisdom, Greek philosophy, and Hellenistic mystery religions."[30]

Regarding the angel Christology of some early Christians, Darrell Hannah notes:

[Some] early Christians understood the pre-incarnate Christ, ontologically, as an angel. This "true" angel Christology took many forms and may have appeared as early as the late First Century, if indeed this is the view opposed in the early chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrews. The Elchasaites, or at least Christians influenced by them, paired the male Christ with the female Holy Spirit, envisioning both as two gigantic angels. Some Valentinian Gnostics supposed that Christ took on an angelic nature and that he might be the Saviour of angels. The author of the Testament of Solomon held Christ to be a particularly effective "thwarting" angel in the exorcism of demons. The author of De Centesima and Epiphanius' "Ebionites" held Christ to have been the highest and most important of the first created archangels, a view similar in many respects to Hermas' equation of Christ with Michael. Finally, a possible exegetical tradition behind the Ascension of Isaiah and attested by Origen's Hebrew master, may witness to yet another angel Christology, as well as an angel Pneumatology.[31]

The pseudepigraphical Christian text Ascension of Isaiah identifies Jesus with angel Christology:

[The Lord Christ is commissioned by the Father] And I heard the voice of the Most High, the father of my LORD as he said to my LORD Christ who will be called Jesus, 'Go out and descend through all the heavens...[32]

So if the Gnostic Christians believed Christ was an angel that'd mean they didn't think he was literally God which is a central tenet of trinitarianism.

Why have we got a 'gnostic Christian' asking us if we want to kill something which his faith doesn't seem to acknowledge anyway?
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?
« Last post by Sigmaleph on September 06, 2021, 11:51:02 am »
Probably?

If one assumes, as specified in the question, that there is such a thing as God's great plan, and one grants that God is omnipotent omniscient etc. then there's basically two options for anything. Either a) it was meant to happen as it did, or b) the plan had no opinion on the matter. There is no c option of the plan being that something else happens, because if omnipotence means anything it means that things go the way you want them to.

So we're left with the possibility that God wanted Adam to sin, or God didn't care if Adam sinned. Except, the story goes, Adam sinning changed everything, threw people out of paradise, created agriculture, etc. It seems kind of odd to declare that God had a great plan and it was completely indifferent to these things happening or not.

So yes, assuming there is such a thing as the great plan and that God works as claimed and that the consequences of eating the fruit of the tree were as described, probably Adam was supposed to sin. Feel free to write your own bible fanfic challenging those assumptions, though.
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Politics and Government / Re: Best Political Cartoons
« Last post by dpareja on September 05, 2021, 12:19:27 pm »
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by davedan on September 05, 2021, 06:45:57 am »
Well the bomb under Hitler didn't work. They missed. At what point would you be justified killing Hitler? Would you be justified the moment before he killed himself in a bunker? Would that have helped? It would have only taken away the ignominy of his suicide.

How can you expect to advance when your morality is just as flawed as the person you are replacing.

Don't get me wrong I am all for killing animals for food. I think we should do it as humanely as possible and that farming practices should be with the minimum amount of cruelty (ie not battery farming etc) but the way you phrased it sounds like you a got real kick out of it.

Frankly there is a big difference between slaughtering a chicken for your Sunday roast and fucking it to death mate. You kind of gave off the latter vibe.

So to you, those who tried to kill Hitler, even the good ones, FMPOV, were just like Hitler.

An interesting moral position.

I disagree.

Was that "you" you used the Royal you?

If not, show where that was shown.

That's a good lad.

I love to chat with Moral Cowards and other Christians about morals.

They generally run away.

Regards
DL

For someone who seems to be quite interested in parsing statements you are quite happy to ignore the bits that don't suit you. My main point was the question needs context, such as when this killing would occur.

That was my main point - as in the question of whether it would be justified in killing Hitler needs to be answered by when. To carry on Tolpuddle's point - is there a justification in killing the Trinity if God's already dead?

Also don't be condescending. It doesn't suit.
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by Tolpuddle Martyr on September 05, 2021, 03:13:59 am »
If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?

I have killed many animals. Some with intent and others by accident.

The notion of killing a person, I find abhorrent. Sometimes it is necessary and or just.

After reading reports of God/Yahweh and Jesus killing instead of curing, the opposite of the thing Jesus said he came to do, --- one has to reject and condemn those mass murderers.

Given the Trinity god’s genocidal character, I would gladly kill the Trinity.

Would you?

As Trump would say, Trinity very very bad. Really Bad.

Regards
DL

It's a bit of a conundrum trying to kill the trinity since none of it's component parts are technically alive. JC got stabbed and left on a Roman torture/PR pole, the Holy Ghost, is well - a ghost and the "father", the bit that can be traced back to Yahweh in the OT doesn't have an origin, doesn't exist in this world and lacks key criteria for living things including physicality and a lifespan.

I mean you could argue that an omni-everything entity is "alive" in a meta Star Trek sense, i.e. "not as we know it" but posing a question as to how one offs an omni everything thingy with three dead components that maybe sorta aren't dead is one of those how many angels dance on pinheads queries that doesn't really have an answer which isn't to say people can't argue about it. It's the internet, people can shitpost about anything!

You are partially right on the speculative nonsense aspects of the question.

The reality aspects I concede.

The question is a moral judgement call and thus has an end game on that side.

I see it as asking the S.S. if they still love Hitler.

Better still, like asking Christians if they would light the fuse for Armageddon.

When faced with a truth, Christians run for the hills.

Funny if not so sad.

Regards
DL
As regards Hitler, I can see that as relevant if we're discussing if it's ever morally right to commit murder, even if it's against a tyrant. I'd cautiously argue that yes, it can be but in the case of killing The Trinity I'd need a lot more information, like how much of the OT and the NT is literally true, parable or hearsay.

We all know what Hitler did, there were a lot of witnesses, photographic evidence and physical evidence. When it comes to biblical history, apart from biblical sources, there's not a lot to go on. Aside from the Hebrew people being a minor kingdom who's existence was acknowledged by the Egyptians and forced into provincial status by the Romans.  If you wanted to judge the actions of contemporaneous figures from the time of biblical history like Israelite kings, Roman Emperors and Egyptian pharaohs you'd have an easier time of it because it's easier to piece together what their actions were. That has a big bearing on your original question, would you kill the Trinity. You need to have some evidence of what the Trinity actually did before you start talking about justifiable homicide.

More pertinent is whether this person/party of three still exists, if that could be shown to be true then the case for killing them would become a lot stronger if the New Testament is any guide to its plans or motives. If, for example, the Trinity really was planning to enact Revelations with the whole orgy of violence, wine vats filled with bleeding skulls, ruining of the Earth and indefinite imprisonment/torture for most of the world's population then yes, killing would absolutely be justified and you'd have a very strong case for doing so as it's more defensible to kill for self defence than as a punishment for past actions.
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by Gnostic Christian on September 03, 2021, 05:10:04 pm »
Well the bomb under Hitler didn't work. They missed. At what point would you be justified killing Hitler? Would you be justified the moment before he killed himself in a bunker? Would that have helped? It would have only taken away the ignominy of his suicide.

How can you expect to advance when your morality is just as flawed as the person you are replacing.

Don't get me wrong I am all for killing animals for food. I think we should do it as humanely as possible and that farming practices should be with the minimum amount of cruelty (ie not battery farming etc) but the way you phrased it sounds like you a got real kick out of it.

Frankly there is a big difference between slaughtering a chicken for your Sunday roast and fucking it to death mate. You kind of gave off the latter vibe.

So to you, those who tried to kill Hitler, even the good ones, FMPOV, were just like Hitler.

An interesting moral position.

I disagree.

Was that "you" you used the Royal you?

If not, show where that was shown.

That's a good lad.

I love to chat with Moral Cowards and other Christians about morals.

They generally run away.

Regards
DL
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Religion and Philosophy / Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?
« Last post by Gnostic Christian on September 03, 2021, 05:02:06 pm »
Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?

Thanks.

Regards
DL
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Religion and Philosophy / Re: If you had the power, would you kill the Trinity?
« Last post by davedan on August 29, 2021, 08:13:45 pm »
Well the bomb under Hitler didn't work. They missed. At what point would you be justified killing Hitler? Would you be justified the moment before he killed himself in a bunker? Would that have helped? It would have only taken away the ignominy of his suicide.

How can you expect to advance when your morality is just as flawed as the person you are replacing.

Don't get me wrong I am all for killing animals for food. I think we should do it as humanely as possible and that farming practices should be with the minimum amount of cruelty (ie not battery farming etc) but the way you phrased it sounds like you a got real kick out of it.

Frankly there is a big difference between slaughtering a chicken for your Sunday roast and fucking it to death mate. You kind of gave off the latter vibe.
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"Our gods are dead. Ancient Klingon warriors slew them millennia ago. They were more trouble than they were worth."

The Gods never lived to die, but that aside.

The harm that the mainstream god religions do is quite apparent and to flippantly ignore it or not fight against it shows an inferior immoral character.

Do unto others.

Regards
DL
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