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Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: Nightangel8212 on April 08, 2012, 04:16:34 pm

Title: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Nightangel8212 on April 08, 2012, 04:16:34 pm
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/ban-gideon-bible-handout-public-schools-sparks-torrent-100007435.html

How very christ-like of them. ::)

Seriously, if there's going to be religion in schools, than teach ALL of it. You'd pretty much have to teach it ALL to keep everyone happy... except the Christians, of course. If you had a school teacher holding up the Koran or a Wiccan Spellbook in front of a classroom, I imagine the shitstorm would be immense.

Keep religion in the home! We want our kids to actually LEARN something useful!
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Her3tiK on April 08, 2012, 04:28:48 pm
Nobody (save for us) would be happy about materials from ALL religions being handed out. How could you justify your actions if such a thing led a good Christian child from the path of righteousness? You might accidentally open his/her mind to other ideas, then who knows what will happen?
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: shykid on April 08, 2012, 04:44:05 pm
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/princess_of_the_internet/funny%20stuff/thfg.jpg)
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 08, 2012, 04:52:29 pm
At a school I went to, there was an old man who would walk around the campus in a big brown trenchcoat handing out fluorescent orange Bibles. Obviously this was a security risk, because he was not authorized to be on the campus and he was freaking kids out. So they told him that he could no longer go on the campus. Instead he stood right outside the campus and followed the kids who walked home.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: shykid on April 08, 2012, 05:05:27 pm
Instead he stood right outside the campus and followed the kids who walked home.

No, that's not super-creepy at all.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Old Viking on April 08, 2012, 05:23:37 pm
In this class of Christian rage is never far beneath the surface.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Thejebusfire on April 08, 2012, 05:24:36 pm
That reminds me of that scene from that crappy christian football movie where the guy would walk into the high school after hours and pray over all the lockers.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 08, 2012, 05:29:23 pm
What movie was that? I only know of a crappy Christian movie about a dancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Me_Dance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Me_Dance)
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Thejebusfire on April 08, 2012, 05:31:29 pm
I think it was called "Facing the Giants" or something. There was like one decent actor in the whole movie.

Any way, I think that guy was a pedo because he would show up in the school and the coach's office at random times.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: RavynousHunter on April 08, 2012, 06:52:52 pm
I say we settle this like modern men!  We'll get the best 4 strategy gamers from both the Christian and non-Christian sides, let them digitally duke it out, and to the winner goes the spoils.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Yaezakura on April 08, 2012, 08:02:53 pm
I say we settle this like modern men!  We'll get the best 4 strategy gamers from both the Christian and non-Christian sides, let them digitally duke it out, and to the winner goes the spoils.

I take offense to that sentiment, as I am a lady and will cream the vast majority of men in any strategy game.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Caitshidhe on April 08, 2012, 08:48:39 pm
I don't even think 'hand out bibles, then represent ALL religions!' is a legitimate argument. First of all, who decides which religions get their material handed out? There are literally thousands upon thousands of religions in the world--some are obviously more popular than others, but it would be absolutely totally impossible to let people come around to hand out material on every religion. Do you just pick the ones represented in the school population? That way lies madness. Every time someone new moves to the area, or someone converts, then you have to invite ANOTHER religious representative to come to the campus to hand out holy books or whatever. And what if there's an outcry from a small, but vocal, group within the community who believe in a religion that's completely crackpot or in some way dangerous? Scientology leaps to mind, but there are others--after all, cults aren't unheard of--and there's every possibility you might get someone who actually believes they're a Jedi. What do you do in that case, if your rule is to represent EVERY religion? You can't very well turn them away but at the same time there is absolutely no way you can defend or justify letting that kind of lunacy onto a school campus.


Obviously this is just a slippery slope fallacy but it is worth thinking about. Saying you have to include every religion to make it fair just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

In any case, I don't think religion of any kind belongs on a public school campus. Unless there is a serious, unbiased class being taught on religions, which is completely different than letting people hand out scripture to the students. Religion is a personal matter and something that should be left up to everyone to decide for themselves. Allowing Gideons to pass out bibles on school grounds is like allowing people from the makeup counter at JC Penny give girls makeovers at recess--there's nothing wrong with wearing makeup and there's nothing wrong with deciding to be a Christian, but these are things that have NOTHING to do with school or education, should be something everyone decides for themselves to participate in or not, and the last thing you want is for kids to feel pressured into either of them.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 08, 2012, 08:57:14 pm
I think it should be okay for students to pass out tracts as long as a school official looks over them first to make sure they do not have anything that could be considered "hate speech." I have no problem with students using their own time (like a home room period) to pass out fliers for a religious event, for example, as long as the flier explicitly states it is religious. However, Jack Chick tracts and anything that encourages bigotry against another group ("Atheists want you to go to hell", "Homosexuality is a sin", etc.) should definitely be disallowed.

A friend of mine in Ohio said that a kid once started passing out Chick tracts during home room. The school confiscated them, but my friend managed to steal a few copies from the main office, went home, and lol'd at the fail. Then he gave copies for his other friends to lol at. And no soul was saved that day.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Caitshidhe on April 08, 2012, 09:15:13 pm
I could see there being an awful lot of pressure at play with your hypothetical plan, Wykked. It's not uncommon for a lot of the kids to be the same religion and even attend the same church, and if you allow students to advertise or promote church-based activities at school you can't honestly say you don't see a potential for there to be a lot of pressure on the non-church-member kids to conform regardless of what their personal beliefs are. Even if it's not intentional, even if the event is totally harmless, like a fun-fair or bake sale. I'm not even much of a conformist, but when I was young a lot of my classmates knew each other from church and I always felt like I had to be a church member myself to be accepted by them. Had I hated church just a little less I might well have gone along with it, even though from a young age I had serious doubts about religion. And that's from someone who isn't otherwise typically a sheeple.

Handing out tracts of any kind would be completely inappropriate. Even the nicest tracts have the same goal as Jack Chick's: to try and convince people to convert to this particular brand of faith. That doesn't belong in a public school.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: nickiknack on April 08, 2012, 10:42:20 pm
I'm with Caitshidhe, there's a time and a place for handing out tracts and bibles, outside of public school. I have no problem with bibles being handed out in for a religion class, but other than that, no. Also, I remember those bibles being handed out, outside of school, the guys used to bug people if they walked past the student parking lot.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: gyeonghwa on April 08, 2012, 11:35:48 pm
I wish they'd stop passing out those Gideon Bibles outside of schools for other reason: Do you know how much of them just ends in the gutter or on the floor? Or how many of them are just collecting dust in a box somewhere? They're just such a waste. Chances are, most people already own a Bible, even the non-Christian ones. You don't need to pass out more to them.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Osama bin Bambi on April 09, 2012, 12:22:13 am
I do not agree with the intentions of the tracts, but I support the students' right to free speech (hate speech notwithstanding). The argument that it will cause peer pressure seems like a double standard to me. There is peer pressure in every school community, and whether you like it or not, it is impossible to regulate. The next best thing that the school can do is to mediate disputes and prevent their students from abusing their right to free speech by spreading hateful things. As you all know I am not religious at all, but frankly I find it silly to prevent kids from talking about their religious beliefs in school, provided that it is a polite discussion and not a hatemongerfest.

In another class (not mine) there was an assignment to make a poster with stamps or something stupid like that. One girl decided to make her poster a pro-life one, with the text "YOUR MOTHER CHOSE LIFE." Do I agree with it? No. Do I think it's something that needs to be shared? No. But was it at least a tasteful sign? Yes, and therefore I saw no reason to object to it. (I did, however, leave a little anonymous post-it next to it that simply read, "CHOSE" in bold red letters.)

Another time, my English class got an assignment where we had to compose a persuasive speech about a topic we are passionate about, and read it in front of the class. One girl wrote her speech about how her Christian faith makes her feel safe and secure and helps her though hard times. Do I agree with it? No, in fact I thought it was trite and clichéd. But even though it was religious, its content was tame. I'm just pointing out that letting kids speak their mind about religion doesn't mean that the school has to tolerate the wharrgarbl.

As for me, I do not distribute Gideon Bibles, but rather Tijuana Bibles.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: nickiknack on April 09, 2012, 01:17:03 am
I have no problem with religion being discussed in school, for a project, or whatever. 
That being said,(spoiler for NSFW link)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Cerim Treascair on April 09, 2012, 03:38:17 am
If I still went to school (Which would require me being over a decade younger, now) and this was going on? I'd be coming to school, and any time I got "Have you heard of Jesus?" my response, depending on how much I wanted to piss them off, would be "Yeah, he ripped off multiple other religions" then either "Y'know, have you heard of Anubis?" or (if the show existed at that time) it would be "Have you heard of the glory of the sun and moon in Celestia and Luna?"

I almost miss my little fucking day-glo orange gideon bible.  Almost.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on April 09, 2012, 05:34:46 am
If you are going to give out free books surely free textbooks would be a better way of showing the kids that you care about them!
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: shykid on April 09, 2012, 07:57:36 am
I do not agree with the intentions of the tracts, but I support the students' right to free speech (hate speech notwithstanding). The argument that it will cause peer pressure seems like a double standard to me. There is peer pressure in every school community, and whether you like it or not, it is impossible to regulate. The next best thing that the school can do is to mediate disputes and prevent their students from abusing their right to free speech by spreading hateful things. As you all know I am not religious at all, but frankly I find it silly to prevent kids from talking about their religious beliefs in school, provided that it is a polite discussion and not a hatemongerfest.

In another class (not mine) there was an assignment to make a poster with stamps or something stupid like that. One girl decided to make her poster a pro-life one, with the text "YOUR MOTHER CHOSE LIFE." Do I agree with it? No. Do I think it's something that needs to be shared? No. But was it at least a tasteful sign? Yes, and therefore I saw no reason to object to it. (I did, however, leave a little anonymous post-it next to it that simply read, "CHOSE" in bold red letters.)

Another time, my English class got an assignment where we had to compose a persuasive speech about a topic we are passionate about, and read it in front of the class. One girl wrote her speech about how her Christian faith makes her feel safe and secure and helps her though hard times. Do I agree with it? No, in fact I thought it was trite and clichéd. But even though it was religious, its content was tame. I'm just pointing out that letting kids speak their mind about religion doesn't mean that the school has to tolerate the wharrgarbl.

As for me, I do not distribute Gideon Bibles, but rather Tijuana Bibles.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel.

I actually think they should be allowed to pass out their Bibles as long as they're not preaching hate, but the thing about this incident that gets to me is the response to it. It's strongly reminiscent of an indignant toddler, except I've never seen a toddler issue a death threat. I've seen a lot of anti-LGBT legislation passed in my time, but not once have I ever sent hate mail or death threats to anyone about it.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Ranger_Joe on April 09, 2012, 08:13:59 am
There was a group of kids that used to hand out the tracts. I dunno if I was considered a challenge or what...When I was in highschool, I wore the BDUs and combat boots, the button up black shirt and the big black leather trench coat. Add really long hair and a bunch of chains and I swear they were practically jizzing at the idea of converting me.

One day, they handed me a track and I ate it. In front of them. Loudly.

No more tracts.  8)
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: rookie on April 09, 2012, 11:08:41 am
I don't even think 'hand out bibles, then represent ALL religions!' is a legitimate argument. First of all, who decides which religions get their material handed out? There are literally thousands upon thousands of religions in the world--some are obviously more popular than others, but it would be absolutely totally impossible to let people come around to hand out material on every religion. Do you just pick the ones represented in the school population? That way lies madness. Every time someone new moves to the area, or someone converts, then you have to invite ANOTHER religious representative to come to the campus to hand out holy books or whatever. And what if there's an outcry from a small, but vocal, group within the community who believe in a religion that's completely crackpot or in some way dangerous? Scientology leaps to mind, but there are others--after all, cults aren't unheard of--and there's every possibility you might get someone who actually believes they're a Jedi. What do you do in that case, if your rule is to represent EVERY religion? You can't very well turn them away but at the same time there is absolutely no way you can defend or justify letting that kind of lunacy onto a school campus.


Obviously this is just a slippery slope fallacy but it is worth thinking about. Saying you have to include every religion to make it fair just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

In any case, I don't think religion of any kind belongs on a public school campus. Unless there is a serious, unbiased class being taught on religions, which is completely different than letting people hand out scripture to the students. Religion is a personal matter and something that should be left up to everyone to decide for themselves. Allowing Gideons to pass out bibles on school grounds is like allowing people from the makeup counter at JC Penny give girls makeovers at recess--there's nothing wrong with wearing makeup and there's nothing wrong with deciding to be a Christian, but these are things that have NOTHING to do with school or education, should be something everyone decides for themselves to participate in or not, and the last thing you want is for kids to feel pressured into either of them.

You make a lot of good points here, Cait. I'd like to address some of them here, if I may. These aren't meant to be read as any more than just one Rookie's thoughts on various matters, so please don't dig too far past the surface. Also, these are POVs from the U.S., so if it works differently in your country, OK. But I'm focusing more on the States here.

You say you disagree with the whole premise that any religious material should be on school grounds. I heartily agree, but there are way too many christians who believe they get heavenly room upgrades for conversions or something, so they will bother people. It's an imperfect world we live in and these asshats are going to be there no matter what. I think what WW was going for was a little bit more, regulation isn't the word I'm looking for, but it's the best I can come up with while working on my second cup of coffee this morning.

Your thoughts on all religions being represented, interesting. But I would say if the Gideons can show up, than anyone who has literature can follow suit. Make Fridays Tract Days or something. Anyone who has had their material checked out to make sure there is no hate speech can pass out their [insert derogatory noun here]. There is still religious freedom, even (at least nominally) for students. There should probably be some sort of background check or something to make sure the (presumably) adults' records are clean. But I'm sure whatever outreach ministry can work with the local school jurisdictions to sort all that out. So the Scientologists can pass out whatever they want as long as my Rooklets can throw them away.

Ignoring the slippery slope argument (because I know you feel pretty much the same as I do on Slippery Slopes), I would think it does stand up to scrutiny. It just needs to be organized. Like, maybe every Friday whoever has registered can wander the cafeteria and hand out their fliers during lunchtimes. Anyone outside the set times or places can be dealt with by the police officers who seem to be milling about schools. Or if needs be, set up a couple days. So the Baptists, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, and Jedis can have Monday lunches. Methodists, Amish, Satanists, Tuesdays. And so on. The problems I can see would be it would get annoying for the kids. And the religious reps would have to behave like adults around the other reps. But as long as the grown ups act like it, there shouldn't be any serious problems. The other thing is I would probably suggest waiting until middle school before exposing the students to all the competing religions. Elementary school is too young for most kids.

Sure, the kids would be pressured to join these different religions. But that's what the parents are for. The adults in the kids' lives have to be involved. Yes, I know the world isn't perfect. I know that sometimes there is only one parent and s/he works. And the car is in the shop and...and...and... But whoever is in charge of the kids has that responsibility to talk to them about what goes on in school.

Your argument that if it isn't about the school or education, it shouldn't be at the school. What value do proms bring to education? Why are schools voting places in a number of communities? I had to walk past the military recruiters every day on my way to classes. I'm not trying to dismiss your point. I just wanted to say it already happens.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Igor on April 12, 2012, 03:55:57 pm
Oh hey, I just realized that's my school board that banned them. Good for them. It's good to hear about my school board doing something rational. Pity about the hate mail though, I thought people around here were smarter than that.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: erictheblue on April 14, 2012, 03:45:37 pm
There was a group of kids that used to hand out the tracts. I dunno if I was considered a challenge or what...When I was in highschool, I wore the BDUs and combat boots, the button up black shirt and the big black leather trench coat. Add really long hair and a bunch of chains and I swear they were practically jizzing at the idea of converting me.

One day, they handed me a track and I ate it. In front of them. Loudly.

No more tracts.  8)

I think I love you!  ;D
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Jack Mann on April 15, 2012, 05:43:15 am
Oh hey, I just realized that's my school board that banned them. Good for them. It's good to hear about my school board doing something rational. Pity about the hate mail though, I thought people around here were smarter than that.

There's a good chance that a lot of the hate mail comes from people who aren't local.
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: Undecided on April 16, 2012, 03:58:38 am
The Gideons on my university's campus are quite irksome sometimes. Some of them have attempted to foist a Bible on me while I am riding my bicycle, nearly knocking me over. -_-
Title: Re: School Ban on Gideon Bible handouts sparks hate mail
Post by: MadCatTLX on April 16, 2012, 10:59:35 am
I'd take as many bibles as they would give me. If they're bigger ones then I'd make hollowed out books with them. If they're those smaller ones then I'd use it as kindling to help start camp fires. They're not totally useless, just the words are ;D.