Author Topic: France threatens to recognize Palestine  (Read 22202 times)

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2016, 12:32:37 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 12:41:09 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2016, 12:45:49 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

It is not "being nice" to uphold basic requirements of reason. It is just an obligation.

Rule 1: never call someone wrong before proving it. Never.

In which year over which issue during which negotiation?
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2016, 12:50:59 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

It is not "being nice" to uphold basic requirements of reason. It is just an obligation.

Rule 1: never call someone wrong before proving it. Never.

In which year over which issue during which negotiation?

2006, shortly after the elections.  Hamas refused to make any commitment to nonviolence, recognize Israel, or accept previous agreements.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2016, 01:02:10 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

It is not "being nice" to uphold basic requirements of reason. It is just an obligation.

Rule 1: never call someone wrong before proving it. Never.

In which year over which issue during which negotiation?

2006, shortly after the elections.  Hamas refused to make any commitment to nonviolence, recognize Israel, or accept previous agreements.

Israel also refused to make a commitment to non-violence, obviously, and immediately violated every prior agreement. They also robbed the national Palestinian bank, turned off water and generally fucked with them as hard as possible, before illegally bombing them flat, signing an agreement, and then violating it with an illegal blockade.

Hamas refused to give up negotiating chips in return for nothing. Totally ridiculous of you to suggest Hamas would not accept an agreement, just because they failed to do so.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2016, 01:10:41 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

It is not "being nice" to uphold basic requirements of reason. It is just an obligation.

Rule 1: never call someone wrong before proving it. Never.

In which year over which issue during which negotiation?

2006, shortly after the elections.  Hamas refused to make any commitment to nonviolence, recognize Israel, or accept previous agreements.

Israel also refused to make a commitment to non-violence, obviously, and immediately violated every prior agreement. They also robbed the national Palestinian bank, turned off water and generally fucked with them as hard as possible, before illegally bombing them flat, signing an agreement, and then violating it with an illegal blockade.

Hamas refused to give up negotiating chips in return for nothing. Totally ridiculous of you to suggest Hamas would not accept an agreement, just because they failed to do so.

Except Israel was showing every sign of genuine compromise with the Palestinians.  They'd already dismantled their Gaza settlements, and were in the process of doing the same in the West Bank.

Israel's actions since are certainly worth criticizing, but it must be remembered that Hamas got the ball rolling.

Also, I'd like a citation on the bank robbery and the water shutoffs.  Did they happen before or after Hamas was elected?

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2016, 01:14:01 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

It is not "being nice" to uphold basic requirements of reason. It is just an obligation.

Rule 1: never call someone wrong before proving it. Never.

In which year over which issue during which negotiation?

2006, shortly after the elections.  Hamas refused to make any commitment to nonviolence, recognize Israel, or accept previous agreements.

Israel also refused to make a commitment to non-violence, obviously, and immediately violated every prior agreement. They also robbed the national Palestinian bank, turned off water and generally fucked with them as hard as possible, before illegally bombing them flat, signing an agreement, and then violating it with an illegal blockade.

Hamas refused to give up negotiating chips in return for nothing. Totally ridiculous of you to suggest Hamas would not accept an agreement, just because they failed to do so.

Except Israel was showing every sign of genuine compromise with the Palestinians.  They'd already dismantled their Gaza settlements, and were in the process of doing the same in the West Bank.

Israel's actions since are certainly worth criticizing, but it must be remembered that Hamas got the ball rolling.

Also, I'd like a citation on the bank robbery and the water shutoffs.  Did they happen before or after Hamas was elected?

Instantly. The day after the election happened. Not exactly a "sign of genuine compromise", no?
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Ironchew

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2016, 01:14:21 am »
Lt. Fred, you stumbled on another wonk issue of UP's.

I've been in this thread before. He won't stop being Israel's mouthpiece.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2016, 01:14:34 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

It is not "being nice" to uphold basic requirements of reason. It is just an obligation.

Rule 1: never call someone wrong before proving it. Never.

In which year over which issue during which negotiation?

2006, shortly after the elections.  Hamas refused to make any commitment to nonviolence, recognize Israel, or accept previous agreements.

Israel also refused to make a commitment to non-violence, obviously, and immediately violated every prior agreement. They also robbed the national Palestinian bank, turned off water and generally fucked with them as hard as possible, before illegally bombing them flat, signing an agreement, and then violating it with an illegal blockade.

Hamas refused to give up negotiating chips in return for nothing. Totally ridiculous of you to suggest Hamas would not accept an agreement, just because they failed to do so.

Except Israel was showing every sign of genuine compromise with the Palestinians.  They'd already dismantled their Gaza settlements, and were in the process of doing the same in the West Bank.

Israel's actions since are certainly worth criticizing, but it must be remembered that Hamas got the ball rolling.

Also, I'd like a citation on the bank robbery and the water shutoffs.  Did they happen before or after Hamas was elected?

Instantly. The day after the election happened. Not exactly a "sign of genuine compromise", no?

Citation?

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2016, 01:43:22 am »
To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

It is not "being nice" to uphold basic requirements of reason. It is just an obligation.

Rule 1: never call someone wrong before proving it. Never.

In which year over which issue during which negotiation?

2006, shortly after the elections.  Hamas refused to make any commitment to nonviolence, recognize Israel, or accept previous agreements.

Israel also refused to make a commitment to non-violence, obviously, and immediately violated every prior agreement. They also robbed the national Palestinian bank, turned off water and generally fucked with them as hard as possible, before illegally bombing them flat, signing an agreement, and then violating it with an illegal blockade.

Hamas refused to give up negotiating chips in return for nothing. Totally ridiculous of you to suggest Hamas would not accept an agreement, just because they failed to do so.

Except Israel was showing every sign of genuine compromise with the Palestinians.  They'd already dismantled their Gaza settlements, and were in the process of doing the same in the West Bank.

Israel's actions since are certainly worth criticizing, but it must be remembered that Hamas got the ball rolling.

Also, I'd like a citation on the bank robbery and the water shutoffs.  Did they happen before or after Hamas was elected?

Instantly. The day after the election happened. Not exactly a "sign of genuine compromise", no?

Citation?

"Israel will withhold an estimated $50m (£28m) in monthly customs revenues due to the PA..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4729000.stm

Water, the only citation I can find is.

https://chomsky.info/20070730/

Certainly the IDF later cut off power.

Aid was also totally ended, from the US and US-aligned charities. Israel and the US also deliberately fermented civil war, spending 1.5 billion arming Fatah.

Hamas, by contrast, immediately begged for a truce. Ignored.

The lesson was pretty clear: vote in elections all you want, so long as it's how we want. Voting against us is illegitimate.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2016, 01:46:21 am »
UP, ya do know that there's just the teensiest, tiniest power differential between the Palestinians and the Israeli's?

Like, Israel is a modern western industrialized state and Palestine is it's shooting range.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2016, 01:48:19 am »
Lt. Fred, you stumbled on another wonk issue of UP's.

What isn't?
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2016, 01:50:32 am »
UP, ya do know that there's just the teensiest, tiniest power differential between the Palestinians and the Israeli's?

Like, Israel is a modern western industrialized state and Palestine is it's shooting range.

As if that makes a difference.  And if Palestine was "Israel's shooting range," you'd expect far more casualties.

To be fair, that's a legitimate concern.  Though my response would be to find some kind of bargaining chip to disincentivize the Palestinians from stonewalling.

On the other hand, I think if the PLO is recognized as Palestine's legitimate government, it might undermine Hamas's authority.

Perhaps bombing them? Israel has endless bargaining chips. Palestine has none. That's why the war continues, and no other reason.

That's a ridiculously one-sided view, almost bordering on self-parody.

If you have a case, state it immediately, shut up immediately or apologise immediately. I am sick as shit of your bullshit argument-by-insinuation and you are not getting an inch ever again.

You're in no position to be making demands.

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll start by pointing out that Hamas refused to compromise with the Quartet, which threw the entire peace process into disarray.

It is not "being nice" to uphold basic requirements of reason. It is just an obligation.

Rule 1: never call someone wrong before proving it. Never.

In which year over which issue during which negotiation?

2006, shortly after the elections.  Hamas refused to make any commitment to nonviolence, recognize Israel, or accept previous agreements.

Israel also refused to make a commitment to non-violence, obviously, and immediately violated every prior agreement. They also robbed the national Palestinian bank, turned off water and generally fucked with them as hard as possible, before illegally bombing them flat, signing an agreement, and then violating it with an illegal blockade.

Hamas refused to give up negotiating chips in return for nothing. Totally ridiculous of you to suggest Hamas would not accept an agreement, just because they failed to do so.

Except Israel was showing every sign of genuine compromise with the Palestinians.  They'd already dismantled their Gaza settlements, and were in the process of doing the same in the West Bank.

Israel's actions since are certainly worth criticizing, but it must be remembered that Hamas got the ball rolling.

Also, I'd like a citation on the bank robbery and the water shutoffs.  Did they happen before or after Hamas was elected?

Instantly. The day after the election happened. Not exactly a "sign of genuine compromise", no?

Citation?

"Israel will withhold an estimated $50m (£28m) in monthly customs revenues due to the PA..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4729000.stm

Water, the only citation I can find is.

https://chomsky.info/20070730/

Certainly the IDF later cut off power.

Aid was also totally ended, from the US and US-aligned charities. Israel and the US also deliberately fermented civil war, spending 1.5 billion arming Fatah.

Your source contradicts you.  You claim it happened the day after the election, but it was nearly a month.  More important, it was after Hamas' rejection.

As for your claim about aid:

Quote
Israel would allow humanitarian aid to reach the Palestinians, Mr Olmert said.

Really, Israel had every reason to work against Hamas.  Its refusal to make even the most minor concessions completely derailed the peace process.

Hamas, by contrast, immediately begged for a truce. Ignored.

Citation?

The lesson was pretty clear: vote in elections all you want, so long as it's how we want. Voting against us is illegitimate.

Funny, because there's a very strong case to be made that Hamas actually is illegitimate.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 02:09:53 am by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline dpareja

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2016, 01:52:00 am »
Lt. Fred, you stumbled on another wonk issue of UP's.

I originally read the fourth "o" of this sentence as an "a".
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: France threatens to recognize Palestine
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2016, 01:53:35 am »
UP, ya do know that there's just the teensiest, tiniest power differential between the Palestinians and the Israeli's?

Like, Israel is a modern western industrialized state and Palestine is it's shooting range.

As if that makes a difference.  And if Palestine was "Israel's shooting range," you'd expect far more casualties.

Can't round them up these days. Bad PR.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR