Author Topic: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida  (Read 21454 times)

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Offline Skybison

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2016, 01:34:36 am »


Come on elected representatives DO YOUR JOB!

Offline Askold

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #91 on: June 16, 2016, 02:14:40 am »
...I still think that filibuster is a stupid concept but I agree on their cause at least. (just wish that jamming a crowbar into the machinery of democracy wasn't the only way to achieve this.)
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
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Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #92 on: June 16, 2016, 02:23:48 am »
Well, had they not filibustered, then the floor debate would have continued to be business as usual with absolutely zero time spent to actually deal with the issue. Now, all the Republicans have agreed to is to take a vote, which means likely nothing will result from the filibuster, but this does demonstrate how completely apathetic towards the literally 10s of thousands of deaths from guns every year the Republicans are that the Democrats had to force them to do absolutely nothing for 15 hours to get them to agree to something as simple as a goddamn vote on a hot issue.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:34:26 am by Cloud3514 »
Who needs a signature?

Offline Skybison

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #93 on: June 16, 2016, 02:28:41 am »
I just goes to show how fucked up the republican party is.  Republican voters want at least some regulation of guns, heck most NRA members do.  Yet the republicans don't even bother to listen to their own voters.

EDIT

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTYvBKszorY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTYvBKszorY</a>
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:45:56 am by Skybison »

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #94 on: June 16, 2016, 02:51:22 am »
Republicans listen to their voters. Their voters vote with their pocketbooks.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #95 on: June 16, 2016, 05:51:53 am »
I just goes to show how fucked up the republican party is.  Republican voters want at least some regulation of guns, heck most NRA members do.  Yet the republicans don't even bother to listen to their own voters.

EDIT

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTYvBKszorY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTYvBKszorY</a>
The voters aren't paying them as much as the NRA.

Nor are its members.

Offline Askold

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #96 on: June 16, 2016, 09:04:09 am »
NRA stopped representing gun owners years ago. They are lobbyists for gun manufacturers and regardless of what the majority of their members want they will cling to the extremist point of view simply because that is what the gunmakers in USA want.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #97 on: June 16, 2016, 09:18:35 am »
The problem I see is that all the gun control laws in the world won't change a damn thing until American culture grows the fuck up and stops thinking that violence is the way to deal with problems. Not automatically demonizing someone who thinks differently than you do would be a good start as would teaching that there doesn't have to be a winner and a loser in every-damn-thing.

To use the drinking and driving example, we didn't ban alcohol to solve the problem. We made the consequences for doing it  worse and we went to great lengths to make it uncool and unnecessary and not just turn a blind eye to it. We had to shift the cultural paradigm, and we're still only in the middle of doing it.

This guy was born and raised in America. He's American made. Period. To think he started hating fags and grabbed a gun just because someone from the country his parents came from (or whatever the excuse of the day is) told him to is delusional. Somebody whispered in his ear. It agreed with what his American upbringing had already taught him. That's why 50 people are dead.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #98 on: June 16, 2016, 11:23:39 am »
The problem I see is that all the gun control laws in the world won't change a damn thing until American culture grows the fuck up and stops thinking that violence is the way to deal with problems. Not automatically demonizing someone who thinks differently than you do would be a good start as would teaching that there doesn't have to be a winner and a loser in every-damn-thing.

To use the drinking and driving example, we didn't ban alcohol to solve the problem. We made the consequences for doing it  worse and we went to great lengths to make it uncool and unnecessary and not just turn a blind eye to it. We had to shift the cultural paradigm, and we're still only in the middle of doing it.

This guy was born and raised in America. He's American made. Period. To think he started hating fags and grabbed a gun just because someone from the country his parents came from (or whatever the excuse of the day is) told him to is delusional. Somebody whispered in his ear. It agreed with what his American upbringing had already taught him. That's why 50 people are dead.

I disagree with your notion of a cultural paradigm shift. People didn't automatically stop drinking and driving, and indeed people still do so today. What happened was people started going to prison for drinking and driving, seeing massive hikes in their car insurance, held liable for murders they committed, and in some instances banned from driving for life. Sure, we hear those numbers that 50% of all highway fatalities are caused by alcohol, and that impacts us, but the government was also using a pretty big stick to beat people who did not learn to comply with the law, which shifted our collective thinking in both a socially conscious way and an "I don't want to be caught breaking the law" way.

What is more, the government was free to collect highway data to learn how to reduce highway fatalities (both involving alcohol and not). Because of that, the government decided that 0.08 was a good limit, they created Dram Shop liability, they re-worked the way that highways were designed, and reduced speed limits. All of these simple solutions saved lives and the only really "control" on alcohol was that the age was raised from 18 to 21. But yet, we can't even gather data on gern violence in this country because the NRA has effectively shut down government and academic research into the area, so that the NRA's research (or foreign/intergovernmental organizations) are all that remain. Basic research into this area would go a long way into making minor policies that could keep bad people from having gerns that wouldn't affect Joe Six-Pack who goes hunting with his boy on Saturday. Having the data might show that 5% of shootings are done by domestic partners with a history of abuse (simple answer, ban domestic abusers from owning gerns) or 10% of shootings are done by people with a history of violent crimes (simple answer, ban those who commit violent crimes from owning gerns), or most mass shootings occur within a week after the lone wolf buys a gern (simple answer, longer wait periods), or from those purchased on the black market (simple answer, registry and background checks, as well as harsher straw purchaser laws). There is also keeping those off the terrorist watchlist from buying gerns (and since the government monitors ricin, planes, and explosives, mass shootings are the new M.O. of terrorists, definitely domestic and most likely foreign). None of these would affect a person's right to buy and own a firearm (unless you fall into one of these categories, or you really believe these people should be armed), but all would have a real effect on REDUCING gern violence. That's the key point, it's not about stopping gern violence altogether, but if we can cut it in half, that is a huge net win because that means 15,000 people are alive who otherwise wouldn't be (and the Australia case study is informative in this area, after it's absolute gern ban, it saw a precipitous decline in violence overall, indicating that these people committing gern crimes not move onto other weapons like knives and cars). And of course, there is the ever-persisting issue of gerns and suicide (which studies show is curbed drastically with waiting periods).

Finally, a big reason that our culture is so "yay gerns" is the NRA. They have convinced us that every democratic politician is out to steal yer gerns in an effort to whip up votes for Republicans, whipping people into a frenzy and thinking that they're gonna be like Han Solo and Luke Skywalker and use said gerns to overthrow the tyrannical government. Gern manufacturers have repeated exploited a toxic masculinity (almost a thin-skinned and fragile masculinity) in advertisements to sell gerns ("your man card has been renewed"). Some ads even equate gerns to toys like barbie dolls in which you "must buy all the accessories." Or the trope surrounding open/concealed carry, that you're somehow gonna shoot the bad-guy before he shoots you, as though you are John Wayne in the wild, wild west. The reason our culture is so backwards on gerns is because the NRA and gern manufacturers created these advertisements that push their views of gerns that play into people's fantasies while we have no sensible policy against which to push back. People can be as reckless or stupid as they want with gerns, and unless they break a crime that is facially neutral towards gerns, they probably will not be arrested.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 11:32:35 am by The_Queen »
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #99 on: June 16, 2016, 12:37:32 pm »
By in large, I think we're in agreement actually.

A governmental big stick has to be part of a cultural shift but as experience with alcohol (and drugs to a lessor extent) shows it has to work the edges of the problem to modify the relationship society has with it rather than outright ban it or it won't work. Neither of us is actually arguing to ban guns, we're both saying sensible laws and enforcement is the right course of action. We're probably working on different time scales here since I see the DD problem as improved from when I was a teen, greatly improved from the time my parents were teens, and hopefully limited to fringe behavior by the time my grand-kids are teens. It's not something we're going to eradicate in 10 years. People are idiots and set in their ways and they pass a watered down version of that on to their kids. If we keep the pressure on eventually it waters down to insignificance.

The fact that you can't even collect data to look at the problem and that is an acceptable state of affairs for a lot of people, politicians, and the NRA is part of why I think a cultural paradigm shift is necessary. Too many people are in a state of denial to acknowledge there is a even problem, let alone think about what could be done to tackle it. Right now America lacks the critical mass to say "this is bullshit -- fix it."

I also think the NRA is only the current focal point and aggravator of a much longer standing problem which is why they managed to entrench themselves so well. Your cultural myths and heros all revolve around the common man seizing control from the savages and saving the day with a gun. The NRA has built on this and twisted it to further their political agenda. Instead of the Indians in the wild west (or the Huns & Japs or the commies) it's the government itself that's the problem. We've been hearing that line since Reagan. Regardless of how it actually got to this point the NRA is an obstacle you are going to have to overcome which is no small task with the American love of binary thinking refusing to allow for a middle ground.

Offline Askold

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #100 on: June 17, 2016, 12:33:16 am »
Now this is the kind of conversation that made me join the site originally.

In my opinion restricting who can get a gun legally is the best way to deal with gun problems. Laws like the ones in California where the appearance of the guns has been modified to fit the laws (google California legal assault rifle) doesn't really stop the gun manufacturers from making niche market guns for them and the magazine restrictions are also only marginally effective. If a mass shooter has to reload a bit more often it might reduce the body count a bit but for those who use the gun in a robbery, suicide or for murdering just one or few people it does not make their job any more difficult.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #101 on: June 17, 2016, 12:54:31 am »
An armed robber is less likely to want to kill you than a spree killer. They don't want muder one and aren't looking to make a statement. They want their meth, crack or smack and that's it. They know that whether they point a sawed off rifle or a gatling gun at you it should have the same result-you concluding that your life isn't worth your cash and credit cards.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #102 on: June 17, 2016, 01:15:43 am »
Now this is the kind of conversation that made me join the site originally.

In my opinion restricting who can get a gun legally is the best way to deal with gun problems. Laws like the ones in California where the appearance of the guns has been modified to fit the laws (google California legal assault rifle) doesn't really stop the gun manufacturers from making niche market guns for them and the magazine restrictions are also only marginally effective. If a mass shooter has to reload a bit more often it might reduce the body count a bit but for those who use the gun in a robbery, suicide or for murdering just one or few people it does not make their job any more difficult.

And you know, that is another thing entirely. Those gerns are disproportionately used in mass shootings. Those gerns are present in about 2% of gern crimes, but used in about 50% of mass shootings. The first question is why is that. The simple answer is that a lot of what people call "cosmetic" are actually design features to make it easier to wield in combat for the purpose of killing a lot of people quickly (remember, these gerns were designed for use on the battle field, not for hunting or self-defense). The second answer is that assault weapon bans do reduce gern violence (remember, America saw a spike in mass shooting and mass shooting deaths since 2005, when the ban expired). But, this really is a thing that agencies like the CDC should be able to look into, to assess the risk v. reward of certain regulations. Because without research, you'll just see more "cosmetic" bans.

And admittedly, one of the reasons that mass shooting deaths have increased since 2005 is clip sizes. Most hand gerns carry 10 bullets, most assault weapons carry 30. Think back to the Tuscon shooting, where Loughner used an extended clip (30) and was tackled in the split second that he reloaded. Smaller clips mean more reloads, and more reloads equal more time to stop the attacker and more time to flee. Additionally, smaller clip sizes do not impede one's ability to defend his or her home nor does it affect hunting.

And again, the smaller clip sizes is part of what I'm talking about with the problem of America. Somebody says "hey, here is a small change we can make to help the problem that won't affect your 'right' to own a gern" and in response we hear "well, it won't solve every problem, so why bother." Focusing on "oh, it won't do anything about XYZ" ignores that it will make a nice bit of difference in the case of A and B. More reloads might have reduced the casualties in Orlando, Tuscon, or Aurora by, let's be conservative, 10%. I'm sure those 7 people would enjoy being alive today, and I'm sure their families would appreciate it as well. I really don't think that Joe Schmuck's "right" to own an extended clip is more important than the lives of shooting victims, both in the present and in the future (and there will be more mass shootings because our politicians are beholden to the NRA to do jack shit about the problem).

Fuck, in a way, the status quo is perfect for gern manufacturers. We make it easy for bad people to get gerns, they shoot places up, the gern manufacturers see an uptick in sales. Against this backdrop, it is in the best interest of Bushmaster and the like to have as many mass shootings as possible because it drives up their profits. And seeing as how the NRA works for them, I'm not surprised that this is the status quo, nor am I surprised that the NRA is using state and local governments to make it even EASIER for these people to get gerns, and get gerns that can kill more people more efficiently.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline Askold

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #103 on: June 17, 2016, 01:25:03 am »
Could you please stop calling them "gerns?"
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Mass shooting in a gay club in Florida
« Reply #104 on: June 17, 2016, 07:35:59 am »
Yes. Actual research, please. For fuck's sake.

Smaller clip and magazine sizes are IMO the most efficient and immediate way of reducing the death tolls. No grandfathering exceptions. You give your old ones to cops and get a couple of new, legal ones back or get heavily fined. You do that and the whole question of assault weapons doesn't matter. A "traditionally" shaped semi-automatic rifle would be just as efficient in a mass shooting as an assault rifle. People would probably still rather use the assault weapons since they look cool and the shooters probably like to think themselves as some kind of badasses. The question of whether to ban semi-automatic high caliber rifles altogether is something I'd like more information on, though.

On a longer term, abolish the fucking castle doctrine and stand your ground laws and any other ones that feed the gun graze. I'd also like to see the rational gun owners just abandon NRA and perhaps start a new organization that actually advances what they want instead of brainwashing them. Yes, NRA gives the members all the gun porn they want and probably has practical benefits for them thanks to the big money behind them but as long as you are a member you support their actions. Period.