Author Topic: GamerGate  (Read 140890 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #450 on: October 19, 2014, 01:26:50 am »
Calling for a vote to lock this thread, as it's no longer anything even approaching useful, tangible discussion.

Let's wait for things to calm down a little.  They seem to be on the right track.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #451 on: October 19, 2014, 01:27:53 am »
However what I would like UP, or any other gamergaters present to do is have a look at this:

(click to show/hide)

Paragon, direct question if I may-do you think this code of ethics reflects what Gamer Gaters are referring to when they speak of journalistic integrity and ethics?

Offline mrdoh

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #452 on: October 19, 2014, 08:03:33 am »
However what I would like UP, or any other gamergaters present to do is have a look at this:

Paragon, direct question if I may-do you think this code of ethics reflects what Gamer Gaters are referring to when they speak of journalistic integrity and ethics?

Yes. It is one of the most cited example of what we want out of our journalist, actually.

And apology for my lateness. My trip back to my third world home country is because of an emergency, so i haven't got the time necessary to reply.  However, i am in the process of writing an essay on this and gathering evidences to back my points up. It won't be a be-all-end-all debunk on some of you guys' claims (because i'm just one guy and it is my opinion based on my position as Know Your Meme's main info guy), but it is a mean to address some of the points you guys raised and something to incite you guys to read and research further into this never ending rabbit hole.

It will be touching on the Wizardchan saga, Milo Yiannopolous' involvement and why denouncing him at this point is suicidal (even if many people are not in line with some of his view), unethical practices of game journalists (up and including blacklisting, threaten a guy from another pub to get fire because refusal to tow the party line, joking about paid reviews...and other unsavory business), the myth of GG being a harassment campaign hiding behind a veneer of ethics reform, funding Anita/ZQ/Wu as a way to combat the narrative, "corporate friendly agenda", censorship and any other hijinks that come to my mind.

ETA? It is gonna be at least one or two days. My apology, again. I got important shits to do.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 08:08:26 am by mrdoh »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #453 on: October 19, 2014, 08:12:48 am »
Yes. It is one of the most cited example of what we want out of our journalist, actually.

How fascinating!

So, you see now contradiction between your movements attempts to deter sponsors away from websites that do not provide favorable content to Gamer gate and this?

Quote
– Deny favored treatment to advertisers, donors or any other special interests, and resist internal and external pressure to influence coverage.

Because I certainly do. It's a blatant attempt to apply external pressure to influence coverage. The very thing ethical journalists are supposed to resist.

Offline Second Coming of Madman

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #454 on: October 19, 2014, 08:15:38 am »
Get back in my belly already. Can somebody stuff him back into my mouth?
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Offline mrdoh

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #455 on: October 19, 2014, 08:33:04 am »
Yes. It is one of the most cited example of what we want out of our journalist, actually.

How fascinating!

So, you see now contradiction between your movements attempts to deter sponsors away from websites that do not provide favorable content to Gamer gate and this?

Quote
– Deny favored treatment to advertisers, donors or any other special interests, and resist internal and external pressure to influence coverage.

Because I certainly do. It's a blatant attempt to apply external pressure to influence coverage. The very thing ethical journalists are supposed to resist.

I think this xkcd comic explain it. And please don't say that it is "favorable" content. We are talking about outright slandering their readership, and at this point to quote TotalBiscuit "feed their readership to the wolves"



And note the part about boycott. Keep in mind boycott is literally the only weapon the readers has in case of publication being assholes to them. Now, you could say that i should note the part about banned from internet community. However, where's the line between ban because you are being a dick, or because you are offering a different opinion? Because i can lead you to some rather disturbing echo chamber behind the anti GG front where there are former anti GG people decided to turn GG after witnessing the amount of censorship and echo chamber involve.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 08:34:35 am by mrdoh »

Offline Second Coming of Madman

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #456 on: October 19, 2014, 08:39:43 am »
That's the letter of the law, asshole. The spirit of the law is quite different.
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Offline mrdoh

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #457 on: October 19, 2014, 08:45:40 am »
That's the letter of the law, asshole. The spirit of the law is quite different.

Pardon me, but i don't think that makes anything i said less relevant.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #458 on: October 19, 2014, 08:50:43 am »
You really have no sense of irony do you?

Here, let me remind you of what your comrade in arms Ultimate Paragon said a few posts ago.

Okay.

But anyway, let's talk about what anti-GamerGate considers censorship. 

Censorship- asking companies to pull their advertisements

Not Censorship- shadowbans, fake DMCA takedowns, editing users' posts, and other bullshit.

See-Gamergaters do cry censorship when they are banned from forums, when their posts are edited on sites that are not their own but you don't think that it is censorship to ask that a company pressure a website to stop a writer from writing their opinion!

In any case, you didn't answer my question-it wasn't about censorship it was about ethics. Aren't journalists supposed to resist the sort of external pressure to influence coverage that was applied to Gamasutra by gamergate as a matter of ethics?

Offline mrdoh

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #459 on: October 19, 2014, 09:09:37 am »
You really have no sense of irony do you?

Here, let me remind you of what your comrade in arms Ultimate Paragon said a few posts ago.

Okay.

But anyway, let's talk about what anti-GamerGate considers censorship. 

Censorship- asking companies to pull their advertisements

Not Censorship- shadowbans, fake DMCA takedowns, editing users' posts, and other bullshit.

See-Gamergaters do cry censorship when they are banned from forums, when their posts are edited on sites that are not their own but you don't think that it is censorship to ask that a company pressure a website to stop a writer from writing their opinion!

In any case, you didn't answer my question-it wasn't about censorship it was about ethics. Aren't journalists supposed to resist the sort of external pressure to influence coverage that was applied to Gamasutra by gamergate as a matter of ethics?

There's a clear difference. And i very doubt it is just "opinion" considering at this point it is a coordinate PR attack. The press are reaching their nuclear option with the mainstream media and there's still no notable slowdown. But I digress.

As for the censorship and the coverage argument, it is not censorship or putting external pressure on them when the customers to ask the advertisers to say "hey, those websites you are advertise on is being a dick to me. I think it is bad for your business to continue to do it". Advert money are earned from good will, from people visiting and clicking on your website. It is not just there for granted. It is FROM the consumers. Also, you are forgetting the part where the writers of those website are still FREE to write or publish whatever they want. They are still pretty much free to slander us and they had been continue doing that since 28/29 of August in the face of Operation Disrespectful Nod. We only utilize our power as a consumer (our only weapon mind you) to tighten their revenue stream because of them being a dick to us. It is not putting a tape over their mouth as much as tighten the noose around their neck because they wasted their good will and they don't deserved OUR ad money anymore. TotalBiscuit put it best on the later part of the Erik Kain's stream. Keep in mind his conclusion came from running a StarCraft team and very much understanding what the consumer's power have.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmosgPNXmNc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmosgPNXmNc</a>

Although, if you think what we are doing is "censorship", then what do you purpose what we should do as a consumer to fight against the corrupt press? You can suggest that we bury our head into the ground and not clicking on them, but that's only putting oneself in a position to ignore the blatant corruption rather than fight against it.

Ok, this is all the time i had for now. I will be back later with some installments of the essay i promised. Cheers.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #460 on: October 19, 2014, 09:38:16 am »
There's a clear difference. And i very doubt it is just "opinion" considering at this point it is a coordinate PR attack. The press are reaching their nuclear option with the mainstream media and there's still no notable slowdown. But I digress.

Oh dear, there really is no central press bureau that tells them all to portray a group in a certain way-it's not a coordinated PR attack, it's people affiliated with your movement doing newsworthy things. For some reason it inspires loonies and loonies do lunatic things that gets the attention of journos, and yes I know you have lots of people that aren't loonies but some attracted to your cause bloody well are!

As for the censorship and the coverage argument, it is not censorship or putting external pressure on them when the customers to ask the advertisers to say "hey, those websites you are advertise on is being a dick to me. I think it is bad for your business to continue to do it". Advert money are earned from good will, from people visiting and clicking on your website. It is not just there for granted. It is FROM the consumers. Also, you are forgetting the part where the writers of those website are still FREE to write or publish whatever they want. They are still pretty much free to slander us and they had been continue doing that since 28/29 of August in the face of Operation Disrespectful Nod. We only utilize our power as a consumer (our only weapon mind you) to tighten their revenue stream because of them being a dick to us. It is not putting a tape over their mouth as much as tighten the noose around their neck because they wasted their good will and they don't deserved OUR ad money anymore. TotalBiscuit put it best on the later part of the Erik Kain's stream. Keep in mind his conclusion came from running a StarCraft team and very much understanding what the consumer's power have.

You are under this really strange impression that GamerGate is Gamasutra's key demographic. I don't think you are, I think they let that piece through because they know that there are plenty of people who play games who don't fit outdated gamer stereotypes and wouldn't be offended, and many of those people were their readers.

And also, the point of all this flim flam-of coordinating a large minority to scare a sponsor into thinking they are dealing with a vast majority was to shut someone up. For an opinion piece that wasn't written for you but their target audience.

Although, if you think what we are doing is "censorship", then what do you purpose what we should do as a consumer to fight against the corrupt press? You can suggest that we bury our head into the ground and not clicking on them, but that's only putting oneself in a position to ignore the blatant corruption rather than fight against it.

What I suggest gamergate do? May I recommend fresh air, cardio, sunlight?

I think the issues you have your knickers in a twist about are non-issues. Because if you were mainly concerned about the gamers as consumers you'd be more worried about broken games that can only be repaired by purchasing expensive DLC's and nickel-and diming micro transactions and a whole lot less about people having the audacity to review games as cultural artifacts instead of merely toys, feminists pointing out that the portrayal of women in many games is less enlightened than the portrayal of actual women were several decades ago and folks saying other stuff about gaming culture that differs from your own narrow worldview.

It's already been pointed out in this thread that if you were for the things you actually say you are for then some of your most strident critics would be agreeing with you, Anita Sarkeesian would probably be agreeing with you, hell, if you were boycotting people because of actual corruption I might even agree with you. But corruption isn't your focus, never has been. It's all about stopping people saying and producing stuff that offends you, you lot are the new Jack Thompsons of gaming and that's why the gaming press is starting to turn against you!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 09:42:35 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline ironbite

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #461 on: October 19, 2014, 12:27:21 pm »
I'm going to point out something that was said by UP earlier that I kinda ignored because I had my brain blue screen on me.  He said, and I paraphrase here, that we can't actually listen to Todd in the Shadows' opinion on Gamergate because his girlfriend, the Nostalgia Chick, is friends with Anita.  So, and I'm using logic here that almost causes my logic centers to spark and shut down, that means we can't actually listen to any Gamergater says because their all friends.  That to me is just asinine and stupid.  But shows a mentality that's key to understand an average Gamergater.  To them, their unity is a strength.  To see that same unity in their opposition is a weakness and should be attacked and then dismissed.

Ironbite-which again, is just plain stupid.

Offline Radiation

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #462 on: October 19, 2014, 01:26:03 pm »
That's the letter of the law, asshole. The spirit of the law is quite different.

Madman, do not insult others in this thread or elsewhere. It's against the rules to do so, that's why we have Flame and Burn for such things.

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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #463 on: October 19, 2014, 01:57:20 pm »
You really have no sense of irony do you?

Here, let me remind you of what your comrade in arms Ultimate Paragon said a few posts ago.

Okay.

But anyway, let's talk about what anti-GamerGate considers censorship. 

Censorship- asking companies to pull their advertisements

Not Censorship- shadowbans, fake DMCA takedowns, editing users' posts, and other bullshit.

See-Gamergaters do cry censorship when they are banned from forums, when their posts are edited on sites that are not their own but you don't think that it is censorship to ask that a company pressure a website to stop a writer from writing their opinion!

In any case, you didn't answer my question-it wasn't about censorship it was about ethics. Aren't journalists supposed to resist the sort of external pressure to influence coverage that was applied to Gamasutra by gamergate as a matter of ethics?

There's a clear difference. And i very doubt it is just "opinion" considering at this point it is a coordinate PR attack. The press are reaching their nuclear option with the mainstream media and there's still no notable slowdown. But I digress.

As for the censorship and the coverage argument, it is not censorship or putting external pressure on them when the customers to ask the advertisers to say "hey, those websites you are advertise on is being a dick to me. I think it is bad for your business to continue to do it". Advert money are earned from good will, from people visiting and clicking on your website. It is not just there for granted. It is FROM the consumers. Also, you are forgetting the part where the writers of those website are still FREE to write or publish whatever they want. They are still pretty much free to slander us and they had been continue doing that since 28/29 of August in the face of Operation Disrespectful Nod. We only utilize our power as a consumer (our only weapon mind you) to tighten their revenue stream because of them being a dick to us. It is not putting a tape over their mouth as much as tighten the noose around their neck because they wasted their good will and they don't deserved OUR ad money anymore. TotalBiscuit put it best on the later part of the Erik Kain's stream. Keep in mind his conclusion came from running a StarCraft team and very much understanding what the consumer's power have.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmosgPNXmNc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmosgPNXmNc</a>

Although, if you think what we are doing is "censorship", then what do you purpose what we should do as a consumer to fight against the corrupt press? You can suggest that we bury our head into the ground and not clicking on them, but that's only putting oneself in a position to ignore the blatant corruption rather than fight against it.

Ok, this is all the time i had for now. I will be back later with some installments of the essay i promised. Cheers.



This is the third time I've posted this image. This is censorship, plain and simple. You go on and on about wanting a "free press," but then you tell people to demand Nintendo cut Polygon out of their press material for a review you disagree with.

You want to know what you can do as a consumer that doesn't involve trying to starve outlets because they don't cater to you? Not read them. Find an outlet that fits with what you want to read. No one is making you read Polygon, Gamasutra, Kotaku or any other outlet that you disagree with or find (somehow) unethical. It's called capitalism. These outlets are just as much businesses as they are press.

You want to starve them? Show them that their audiences don't like what they're reporting and the easiest way to do that is not read them. You don't have to like their coverage, but you also don't have to pay attention to it. A free press means that you are just as free to ignore outlets you don't like as those outlets are to report on things you don't like.

Why do you want to read these outlets that you are so strongly against? Because demanding they change with threats of making advertisers pull revenue or publishers pull press material is not just contradictory to your claimed goals of free press, it implies that you want these outlets to cater to you when they have no such obligation.

Whether you want to believe it or not, trying to starve an outlet for content you don't like is censorship. You bitch and moan about the "death of gamer" articles as if 1) they were a personal attack against you (bitter tone and opportunist timing were why those were made) and 2) you were in their target audience in the first place, but did it ever occur to you to simply go elsewhere for coverage you were happy with? Or even start covering games yourself?

You go on and on about the gaming press mailing list, despite these kinds of social clubs existing for journalists all over the goddamn world in all fields for literally centuries. Professionals in the same field will talk to each other. They will build professional friendships because that's business. It's building connections for the purposes of advancing careers and setting up safety nets. Just like professionals in any field.

If you know so much about ethics and journalism that you think you know better than professionals who took years to study those things and even more years to build up good reputations (the moment a journalist is shown to be unethical is the moment that no legitimate outlet will hire them), then why not take advantage of this timing and provide an alternative?

I know you're probably thinking that this is me going "let's see you do better" and to an extent, it is. However, the timing is perfect. GamerGaters at least claim that they want a better alternative, but I've not seen anything major pop up. I've seen a minor website pop up (and props to Good Gamers for being, as far as I can tell, a solid outlet), but I have no idea how much traction they've gained.

It really doesn't even take that long to become a decently major outlet. Polygon started in 2012. While not as big as the titans that are IGN and Gamespot, it's silly to say that they're not a relatively major outlet.

Believe it or not, the press needs diverse voices. GamerGate is one of those voices. If GamerGate feels unrepresented, then under the free press they keep demanding, they have every right to seek out outlets that speak to them. Don't pretend that you're being censored somehow just because you're not in an outlet's target audience. Remember, the press is only obligated to be neutral when reporting on hard facts and, even then, eliminating bias altogether is outright impossible.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 02:06:55 pm by Cloud3514 »
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Offline mrdoh

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Re: GamerGate
« Reply #464 on: October 19, 2014, 03:56:52 pm »
^Just a bit of note, GoodGamers is actually where i volunteering. At the moment however it is suffering from terrible, terrible management from the EIC. We are talking about 2 or 3 days without an article running. There are murmur of other start up, but as far as i know we are the only site that is actually still running somewhat

And no, we are not starving their outlet for content. We are displaying to them that we felt insulted about their content and we want the advertisers to know about it. That's boycott 101. Boycott is protest, not censorship. We are starving the outlet of the money, the money that came directly from our clicks, from displaying ad. We as a consumers feel that we needed to put our money elsewhere (since we are dead, remember?). We are running with a focus on smaller sites with our Promotion of the Day, while at the same time restricting the flow of money into these big corrupted sites with Boycott of the Day. This is not a mean to silencing their voice. To put it mildly, we are taking away their podium. Remember, this is an asymmetrical war, where the websites had the advantages in voices and media, while the only thing that the consumers have is numbers and our opinion. And we are putting it to good use. Bury our heads in the sand to focus on smaller sites is doing nothing to the corruption we had unearthed.

And Gamasutra as much as a dev site it is, actually had a large hardcore fans following to read on it. So yeah, it is definitely a consumer site.

As for the Operation Bayonetta 2, i will say it outright that I didn't really care for it except the fact that it was incite because of Arthur Gies' review. My feeling is very indifferent, so i can't really comment about it. I do say though that the Polygon article did rubbed people the wrong way due to the fact that it unfairly docked points because of the developer's artistic vision differ from the reviewer (this is kind of ties in to the whole agenda-in-review thing i will talk later), not because of its gameplay or content.

I will let you know though is that Arthur Gies had a Suicide Girls account (alternative porn, if you will) where he had 90+ models in his account. I'm guessing that he didn't like Bayonetta because she doesn't have neon hair or tattoo on her body. That whole thing kinda make his stance about Bayonetta being sexist and shits is a tad hypocritical, if you will.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:06:10 pm by mrdoh »